Can restaurants refuse to cut food into smaller portions?

Xr

Had a meal out with a friend in a local cafe today that specializes in crepes and pancakes. As we were ordering I asked the server if it would be possible to cut my order into smaller pieces as I had broken my wrist and thumb and was in a full cast. The server apologised and said that it wasn't possible because they weren't 'set up' in their kitchen and it that it would slow down orders. She asked if my friend could do it for me, and my friend was of course totally fine.

It was a little embarrassing and really, everything was fine in the end, but it just kind of bugged me on the way home. What would have happened if I was dining alone? No pancakes for me?

For example I would have been fine if it was cut at my table, but is there some kind of health and safety issue I am missing or should I have pressed things?

Anyway, has anyone else had this experience?

AndrewJRenko

It could be considered a 'reasonable accommodation', which would be a legal obligation.

If you Want to follow up formally, you could contact management of the café, or if you're really narky, you could take an Equal Status case to the WRC.

TherapyBoy

What would you have gained if you had “..pressed things”?

You had a problem & your friend helped you out, problem solved. The way to get back at the cafe/staff etc is to not dine there again.

Best thing to do is just get yourself past it, once you realise that there is no issue anymore everything is roses.

sydthebeat

If you were dining alone you could have cut the pancakes with the hand you would be feeding yourself with.

This wasn't well done steak, it was pancakes.

Xr

I'm not sure if you've ever tried to cut something one-handed while your fingers are very much only poking out the end of a cast. x)

But, that's beside the point, I wouldn't have asked if I was capable of doing so myself.

As to the first response, no, It's not an issue of getting back at anybody, I'm more curious if this is a common experience for those dining out who may have additional needs and how to respond in such a situation. But yes, ignoring it is perfectly valid, and probably less stressful.

I work in a healthcare adjacent catering setting where we are trained to assist customers with anything they might need, from helping them with their trays, getting them water, opening beverages etc. Not all of that is explicitly part of our duties, we don't generally offer table service for example but will provide extra assistance when requested, or indeed offer assistance before being requested.

It just seems like a positive and kind thing to do if someone needs the help. And I suppose it bothers me more than usual when I encounter a lack of that kind of care when on the recieving end.

con747

My OH rarely uses a knife for anything other than buttering bread and cutting steak, not sure if this is a wind up or not. Pancakes and Crepes? One handed 🤔 I think most people over the age of 4 could manage that unless I'm missing something here. Maybe I'm completely wrong and apologise if that's the case.

Xr

Well, these would be about 10" - 12" inches folded with fillings and such, cheese spinach etc.

But again, as I stated if I was capable of doing so I would not have requested the help. And hence why I put the question under accessibility, mobility & disability, as in this context the question is not being asked as being fully abled in this instance.

REDBULL68

Oh the world we live in ,

Peregrinus

If you're unable,because of an injury or an illness, to perform common tasks like cutting up your own food, that's a disability. It doesn't matter that the condition is temporary; a temporary disability is still a disability.

Under Equal Status Act 200 s. 4, a refusal or failure by a service provider to do whatever is reasonable to accommodate the needs of a person with a disability by providing special treatment or facilities is discrimination, if the person cannot avail themselves of the serivce without that special treatment or facilities.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a restauranteur to serve food already cut up. They already plate up and present the food as a matter of routine; cutting it up is the work of a few extra seconds and any kitchen will have both the staff and the tools required for the job. The Act provides that refusal to provide a service is not reasonable unless providing the service would impose a more than nominal cost on the service provider; I don't see any cost at all here.

So the question comes down to; is the person in the cast unable to eat at the restaurant if the restauranteur refuses to cut up their food for them?

The only argument I think the restauranteur could mount would be: the person in the cast could avail of the restaurant's services because they were accompanied by a friend who would cut up the food for them. But "I don't have to provide this service because there is somebody else on hand who will provide it" is not a strong argument; am I excused from providing a wheelchair ramp because a wheelchair user is accompanied by someone who is willing to bump the chair up a flight of steps? And, of course, if the person in the cast had come to the restaurant alone, the argument wouldn't be available at all.

So, yeah, a restauranteur in this situation does have an obligation to cut up the food. And, while some might think providing a legal remedy for this is overkill and is absurd, what is even more absurd is that a restauranteur would refuse to cut it up in the first place. And yet in this case there was a refusal.

Avatar in the Post

Pretty sure the restaurateur didn’t know anything about it, the server is unlikely to have come across such a request before. They should have contacted a manager.

But, I suspect the server saw the customer had one good hand and would have been able to eat the food. That’s how I would have eaten it myself, side of fork to cut, same hand fork to mouth (possibly with phone in the other hand).

Going by yesterday’s reported case (loud music in restaurant), it looks as if the WRC will no longer be getting involved in such cases.

That the person felt embarrassed may mean they are looking for compo. If they had one good hand I don’t think they’ll get far in the courts, imo.

Peregrinus

Yesterday's case about loud music relates to a complaint of discrimination occurring on premises licensed under the Intoxicating Liquor Acts. The WRC declined to rule on the complaint because complaints about discrimination on licensed premises have to go to the District Court. This has no relevance to complaints about discrimination not on licensed premises. (We don't know whether the "local café" the OP mentions was licensed or not.)

I agree that the issue is whether the OP was in fact unable to avail of the service if the food wasn't cut up for them. The OP has better information on this than either of us does and they say they weren't able to; that's why they asked to have the food cut up. And if that played out in a court or tribunal hearing, it would be up to the defendant to rebut the OP's evidence on this point. The server's on-the-spot assessment that the OP should be able to do it (if that is what happened) wouldn't be enough.

(Nor, as a matter of good practice, should servers be put in the position of making assessments of this kind. If the customer asks for a particular accommodation then as a rule you should accept that they need it, and the only question you should be asking yourself is whether it's reasonable to provide it.)

Calahonda52

Under Equal Status Act 200 s. 4, a refusal or failure by a service provider to do whatever is reasonable to accommodate the needs of a person with a disability by providing special treatment or facilities is discrimination, if the person cannot avail themselves of the serivce without that special treatment or facilities.

Can't agree with that here:

SharkMX

My parents spent years trying to get us all to use a knife. My brother still doesnt use one. We seemed to have no problems at all not using a knife to cut food. In fact one hand would be wrapped around the phone while we use the other to hold a fork and cut our food either with the fork turned sideways or by putting lumps of it on the fork and biting what you are eating off.

I only really started to use a knife properly when I went to college. But I could certainly get by with eating food one handed. Thousands do. People with broken arms, wrists, even people with an arm missing can all eat fine with one hand.

Deeec

Being honest op why didn't you just go somewhere who does sandwichs, burgers etc or something easy to eat one handed.

I myself never cut up pancakes - I roll or fold them and eat them whole. I would imagine the waiter/waitress thought you could eat it without cutting it.

That being said the server themselves should have carried out your request ( which appears to be a simple ask)without the need to ask the kitchen at all. Unfortunately some employees are just plain stupid and won't do anything out of the ordinary. I would think it's not the restaurants fault, it's the fault of the individual you asked.

patnor1011

I just spoke with friend who happened to be born with just one arm and mentioned this to him. He did not want to believe. He said he would drop dead from shame having to ask someone at the retaurant to cut up his food for him. Btw he does everything even driving with just one arm.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172526#Comment_122172526

Yes, but having lived with this condition all his life he presumably has techniques and coping mechanisms that aren't readily available to someone suddenly finding themselves with the use of only one arm.

it's irrelevant that someone else might be able to cope without any special accommodation. All that matters is whether the person actualy seeking to avail of the service requires any special accommodation to do so. And your opinion, or my opinion, or the service provider's opinion about whether they should require special accommodation is neither here nor there.

magicbastarder

Gotta love these threads; OP asks server 'hi, I've a broken wrist so am one handed, any chance you could ask the chef to dice up my food a bit before serving it?'

Boards: 'OMFG how did you ever get through life?!??'

Not made with hands

I broke my wrist before. Never had a problem cutting my food.

At worst put the fork over the food and the side of the plate, pin it down using the force of your wrist on the cast.

Use the good hand to cut.

magicbastarder

Out of curiosity, was it the wrist of your dominant hand you broke?

I would suspect it's a lot easier to manage with a dominant hand than it would be if it was your dominant hand which was incapacitated.

fullstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172175#Comment_122172175

I think “if you’re really narky” should read “if you’re a thundering kunt”.

Imaging taking a restaurant to the WRC because your friend had to cut your pancakes 😂 **** me

AnnieinDundrum

my bestie was born with one hand. She manages 99% of the time and doesn’t order stuff she can’t manage if she’s on her own. So no solo steaks.

filled pancakes might be messy to cut with the side of a fork, so I suggest you choose something else if you are eating solo for the next while.

I don’t know why they didn’t just take it away and chop it up, but depends on how busy they were in the kitchen maybe. Don’t think front of house staff will have access to the kitchen to do prep work.

Homer

need a hand wiping your behind? If not then you don’t need someone cutting up a crepe

looksee

Having an arm in a cast isn't a disability, its a bit of a temporary inconvenience. It happens to thousands of people, and they generally make the best of it.

Leaving aside the fact that it may have been possible to get the food cut up but the restaurant server didn't have the gumption or experience to enable it, or that it might have been something to do with the 'poor me' attitude and the smirk that the OP had when asking; most people in their situation would have a. ordered something that didn't need cutting up, or b. accepted that their friend would help, or c. said ok, I will go elsewhere, or d. eaten it American style cutting it with the side of a fork - its a pancake for heavens sake!

Its more like - my life is boring, this cast is a great bit of drama, I am going to milk it for all I can.

magicbastarder

Smirk? Why are people so quick to assume malice?

davetherave

What smirk? There's no mention of a smirk or a poor me attitude in the op. A bit of common sense would suggest that obviously someone who has been living with one arm/hand for 20 years will have adapted and be more able to manage than someone who is temporarily one handed.

looksee

'People' are not so quick to 'assume malice', just me guessing there may be more to this than was originally stated.

rock22

Playing devil's advocate, I am not too sure any discrimination occurred.

From preliminary " The Acts outlaw discrimination in all services that are generally available to the public".

If cutting up food was a service the café offered generally to the public but refused for disabled people then it would be guilty of discrimination. But , I assume the café offers no such service.

However, I agree, the café could have been a lot more accommodating in this instance.

Avatar in the Post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172510#Comment_122172510

Yes, your Honour I did indeed choke because of a cut up piece was too big and I couldn't swallow it properly. There were tears streaming down my eyes, and all this in front of people that know me. I was sooo embarrassed, I've not been to work in weeks.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172685#Comment_122172685

😂All the waiter/waitress needed to do the job was a knife and fork to cut it up. No need whatsover to bring it back to the kitchen or ask the kitchen staff to do it.

Avatar in the Post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172456#Comment_122172456

The OP went into fine detail as to the reason they couldn't eat was because of a hand in a cast. A working hand is the norm unless stated otherwise, so the assumption is that they did have a working hand. If not, it is reasonable to assume the OP would have mentioned this as part of the detail they went into when explaining their dilemma.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172663#Comment_122172663

Anything is possible these days, but I would think we have reached peak stupidity if I read that a restaurant lost a discrimination case due to not cutting up food for someone with a cast on their arm, there with a friend.

Peregrinus

We should dial it back a bit, guys. There is no question of anyone bringing a claim for compensation. OP has made it clear that they have no desire or intention to do this; they are just exploring what the law requires or expects businesses to do in this situation.

(Presumably we can all agree that businesses should generally comply with the law without being threatened with a lawsuit to compel them to do so. An important function of a law like this is not to provide a remedy, but simply to establish clarity and a level playing field around what patrons can expect and what business should do.)

Avatar in the Post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172756#Comment_122172756

Complainant barrister, 'And what training did the server have in food preparation before cutting up X's food?'

looksee

what the law requires or expects businesses to do in this situation.

Presumably if the cafe provided food that could be eaten one-handed then they have made accommodation for anyone coming in with only one usable hand. The OP chose to go into a restaurant that sold food that he would (in his opinion) need to attack with a knife and fork, two handed. He then chose an item on the menu that he anticipated he would not be able to eat one handed. And, he had a friend with him who could help him.

The server could have made the decision to help him, but possibly suspected that they were being trolled, and declined.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172949#Comment_122172949

I don't think so. The core question is whether is it reasonable to make a particular accommodation (in this case, cutting up the food). If it is, they you have to make that accommodation. It's no answer to say that you've made a different accommodation (offering gruel on the menu). The point about a restaurant is that the diner selects what he would like from the menu offered. That's part of the service that the patron with a disability wishes to access, and the question is "what is it reasonable to expect the restaurant to do to enable the patron to access the service?" In that context, being willing to cut up the food looks like a no-brainer to me. "We offer a limited menu of food that doesn't need to be cut up for disabled diners" is not a defence that is going to succeed here.

o1s1n

I suppose they did ask if your friend could do it, which they could.

Maybe if your friend wasn't there they might have actually done it for you?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172949#Comment_122172949

The server could have made the decision to help him, but possibly suspected that they were being trolled, and declined.

taking the OP at face value, the fact that they'd a hand in a cast would have pointed the needle back towards sincerity.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172640#Comment_122172640

Just had my breakfast and decided to eat it with one hand. Cant say it was in any way difficult.

magicbastarder

yeah, but was it cornflakes!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173064#Comment_122173064

yeah thats it really. if the OP was there alone i think the restaurant may have been more accommodating.

as it was, it was their suggestion that the friend cut the food up, presumably to a better degree under instruction from the OP who would be looking straight at the food… so in effect the restaurant were very accomodating in my book.

blackvalley

So according to the server the restaurant kitchen wasn’t “ set up “ to cut a pancake into a few pieces. Need to send in Gordon Ramsey 😋

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173108#Comment_122173108

It was waffles with Nutella.

We should have a challenge. Everyone try and eat their lunch with one hand and come back and let the rest of us know how they got on. Obviously if you know you'll be eating with one hand youll be making sure you wont be having a steak or a hard boiled egg for lunch, well unless you feel you need to add extra drama to your lunch :)

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058352811/can-restaurants-refuse-to-cut-food-into-smaller-portions

Not effecting your ability to type beautifully or did you have this done for you as well?

mykrodot

just thinking if the server did in fact cut up the pancake and then the OP choked on a piece of the cut up pancake, they could then sue the server and the restaurant for not cutting it up into the correct size pieces!! Why would the restaurant take that on themselves? They are not trained carers for the elderly.

If it was me I wouldn't have ordered pancakes, plenty of time for that when the wrist is fixed, I would have ordered something easy like soup and a sambo. Too much drama.

Kimbot

I was in a cast before on my main hand up to the elbow, it never restricted me from cutting up food with my other hand so I actually dont see the issue here at all especially when the food is soft and easy to cut up.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172703#Comment_122172703

You need to check the definition of disability in the Equal Status Acts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172737#Comment_122172737

The service is providing food that can be eaten. You don't get around discrimination claims with that nonsense.

Sorry, we don't normally provide a ramp, so we're not going to provide a ramp to you. It's your own fault for coming here in your wheelchair.

Henry Ford III

I don't understand why this is even a discussion.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058352811/can-restaurants-refuse-to-cut-food-into-smaller-portions

if this spoofer didn't create made up threads, what would you clowns argue about

looksee

So is suffering from coeliac disease a disability? It is something that restricts normal activity so does that mean that the restaurant must provide a gluten free alternative to every dish, not just give the customer alternative gf options? Lots of cafes don't offer any gf alternatives, should there be legislation about it?

A cast on an arm is an inconvenience and generally people would do their best to help someone in that situation, but not making any attempt to mitigate their own problems by choosing suitable food, then asking for someone to cut up their food while they have someone with them who could easily do it is just unreasonable.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174064#Comment_122174064

There's lots of history around deciding what is a 'reasonable accommodation' for service providers. The major restriction is that reasonable accommodations can only impose "nominal costs" on service providers.

At a guess, producing a range of gluten free offerings would impose more than a nominal cost. Cutting up a pancake would not impose more than a nominal cost.

Honestly, if this is your first step into equal status rights for people with disabilities, maybe do some research before making definitive statements.

Friends are not carers. People with disabilities should not be expected to impose on their friends to act as their carers.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172620#Comment_122172620

its ok for the op to ask the waiter to cut up the food, but to start a thread about it and act as if it was some big Rosa Parks incident is ridiculous.

I bet if the op was stranded on a desert island they wouldn't care about getting the crepes cut up. 😂