Experts calling for Operation Transformation to be taken off the air

_H80_GHT

Seeing obese children eating junk food in restaurants with their parents is all too common these days.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158720#Comment_122158720

No but you don't have anything to say about any other point I refute either though.

No idea, there would certainly be markers for illness/malfunctioning in the body where I think it could be officially classed as disease but I'm not sure if those are actually tested in individuals who are obese or if the doctors just make an assessment based purely on BMI, body fat and perhaps other health checks and failed attempts at losing weight.

Presumably there is also a tipping point in people where it would be possible to pull it back and reverse things with the right intervention but go beyond that and you're kind of fucked, but then that's probably very individual also. Whether that can be tested I don't know but presumably if the future is going to be all about prevention then they will be.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158964#Comment_122158964

I've refuted any of your points that are worth refuting.

Anyway interesting article in the Independent today:

https://archive.ph/cb6Q9

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158720#Comment_122158720

A BMI of 30

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159022#Comment_122159022

So if you're obese (using some bullsh!t metric) it's a disease but if you're not obese but just overweight it's not a disease. Got it. Very scientific. I'm fairly sure there's some circular reasoning there.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158981#Comment_122158981

Nope you have a rigid view and you won't deviate from that. You ask questions but if they're answered then you ignore them and move on to bashing this new approach again.

That was really not interesting, just another opinion piece saying that obese people want to blame everything but themselves. It's interesting to you because you also hold that view.

There's loads of actual interesting stuff out there if you actually cared to look

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/12/health/obesity-changes-brain-wellness/index.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/obesity-research-confirms-long-term-weight-loss-almost-impossible-1.2663585

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK572076/#:~:text=Obesity%20is%20a%20chronic%20disease,defective%20hormonal%20and%20immune%20system.

A lot of people want to believe it's a conspiracy theory by big pharma, all these scientists are just lying to push the drugs.

As a side note I very much believe that big Pharma pushes drugs on people. I'm aware that there are big players in the industry who stand to benefit from this, but I also believe that it's true that people can't reverse this through diet and exercise alone.

Now there's obviously a lot who believe that of course they could reverse it if they just stuck to the diet plan……..well great believe that if you want but the stats show that that approach hasn't been successful….so do you think that they should continue to focus on the same approach because it's the right one and hope that now it starts to work ? 🤔 As is often said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

Should they drop the healthy eating and exercising advice? Absolutely not. Because that's still important, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that either even if people want to interpret it that way.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159035#Comment_122159035

No.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/obesity/

Your GP will check: 

• your weight and height, to calculate your body mass index (BMI)
• your waist circumference
• if you have any health problems that are linked to obesity

They may diagnose you with obesity if you have a high BMI and any health problems linked to obesity.

Getting a diagnosis of obesity

Your GP will assess your:

• body mass index (BMI)
• waist circumference
• weight-related health problems

Your GP may ask about:

• how your weight impacts your health
• your work and home environment
• your sleep, diet, and physical activity
• if you feel stressed
• smoking and drinking alcohol
• your family history
• weight-related health problems
• medicines you are taking that may be causing weight gain

Body mass index (BMI)

Your BMI is calculated by dividing your weight in kilograms by your height in metres.

Work out your BMI using the safefood BMI healthy weight calculator.

People with a BMI of 30 or more have a high risk of obesity.

Waist circumference

Your GP will measure your waist to see where you carry your weight.

The amount of weight you carry around your tummy can affect your:

• hormones
• immune system
• risk of heart disease and diabetes

If you have more fat in your belly area than elsewhere, this may increase your risk of obesity.

For men, you have a higher risk of health problems if your waist circumference is more than 102 centimetres (40 inches).

For women, you have a higher risk of health problems if your waist circumference is more than 88 centimetres (35 inches).

Waist size cut offs are lower for people of certain ethnicities because of a higher risk of type 2 diabetes and heart disease.

Learn how to measure your waist circumference - safefood.net

Health problems linked to weight

Your GP will check if you have any health conditions linked to your weight.

These conditions include:

• high blood pressure
• high cholesterol
• raised liver enzymes
• pre-diabetes or type 2 diabetes
• heart disease
• muscle or joint conditions, such as osteoarthritis
• physical limitations, such as shortness of breath and poor mobility
• mental health issues, such as anxiety or depression

They may also carry out health checks to find out if your weight puts you at risk of developing health problems. These checks could include blood tests and measuring your blood pressure.

This will help your GP to understand your risk of obesity. They will help you decide on the best treatment plan.

The Black Oil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158156#Comment_122158156

I think you're a bit stuck on this final point. Let's say some of the 'mechanics' of weight loss is straightforward, physically. Mentally, it sounds like another story. Can the average overweight or obese person transform their grocery list and and turn things around relatively quickly, probably not. You and others here are really undervaluing the need to focus on sustainable, long-term weight loss. No different to getting a personal best in a race, it takes months or years of effort, consistent training, sometimes things not going to plan, plus things in the background going relatively smoothly too.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159154#Comment_122159154

None of which says anything about whether your obesity constitutes a disease - or is it by definition if you are diagnosed as obese that you have the disease? I didn't claim BMI >30=obese, I was responding to another poster that claimed that. In any case it seems to be a rule of thumb using what your posted anyway 'People with a BMI of 30 or more have a high risk of obesity.'

The WHO also states ' A body mass index (BMI) over 25 is considered overweight, and over 30 is obese.'

My point is it seems very arbitrary and unscientific given the use of crude metrics such as the BMI. You mentioned markers which would be objective / scientific but I see no mention of that.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159286#Comment_122159286

It says "They may diagnose you with obesity if you have a high BMI and any health problems linked to obesity" so they don't diagnose people as 'obese' and then say that means they have the disease of obesity. The doctor will diagnose someone with obesity (or not) based on all of the other information provided and the tests.

Yeah you responded to another poster and seemed to take that as fact. I just posted the information from the HSE website to show that BMI was not the only criteria used.

Yes WHO state that 30 is 'obese', but then obesity and obese are not the same thing. Also sometimes certain words can have two meanings.

However having looked at the WHO website though they seem to be pushing it a bit and are also labelling 'overweight' as a condition..and saying people are living with 'overweight' which just sounds silly. I suppose for some they would technically fit the definition of chronic disease "a long-term health condition that needs ongoing treatment and management". But it just doesn't work with the word 'overweight' so I accept that some people would feel the same about the word obesity.

It doesn't sound arbitrary or unscientific at all.

There are markers described in the pathophysiology of obesity link I posted earlier. Presumably some of those are picked up in the blood tests. I'm not sure if they check for all hormones but they certainly would for insulin. They also mention on the HSE list that they check for high cholesterol, raised liver enzymes etc so they would all be blood tests.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122151764#Comment_122151764

Yes, I'm including anyone peddling weight loss medication for those who could use diet and exercise instead as a bad actor. And they sell their snake oil via social media and influencers to convince people that their way is the only way. And before you know it the tax payer is paying the bill for everyone over medicalising and the huge costs associated with that; and any side effects etc etc etc. And it becomes a religion, whereby if you say something like this you are ostracised.

Beechwoodspark

I for one am glad it’s been thrown in the dustbin.
The way the so called self appointed experts used to sneer and insult the contestants was nothing but desperate.

that Catherine Thomas one the worst of them all - big sneer head on her.

Good riddance to it.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162538#Comment_122162538

But they have tried the 'diet and exercise' approach for a long time, even if you believe that it would work if people actually stuck to it, it can't be considered a successful treatment or realistic option if no one actually sticks to it. The drugs actually help people to stick to it.

The taxpayer is already paying for obesity related health care and all of the other illnesses and costs associated with it though. It seems that the weight loss drugs don't work for a lot of people anyway so they might end up paying X amount for the group they work for, for the others they're just paying X amount for something else.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160009#Comment_122160009

What's the difference between obese and obesity? Being obese means you're suffering with obesity surely. I'm still none the wiser when being overweight / obese becomes a disease - you claim it's not arbitrary or unscientific yet can't provide a straightforward answer. Which, to be fair, I don't think exists.

This article is 10 years old but gives a good summary of the arguments for and against:

What Good or Bad Effects Might Come From Calling Obesity a Disease?

So is it a good idea to label obesity a disease? Overall, I think yes it is despite the many controversies associated with the disease designation. These include the controversy regarding the lack of a universal definition for obesity, and whether it fits the scientific definition of a disease. There are also concerns that the definition of obesity as a disease will shift the emphasis towards treatment with surgery/medications, and away from prevention efforts via lifestyle changes, including behavior modification, diet, and exercise. There are concerns that obese people will be labeled as having a disease, even if they are not sick. This could have effects on obese individuals’ efforts to manage their weight and make lifestyle changes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6179496/

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163175#Comment_122163175

Well it seems that the way the HSE use it 'obese' just means that your BMI is in the obese category on the scale. But it's obesity when you are obese on the BMI scale AND have other associated health problems.

If you're none the wiser then it seems to be because you're just not accepting that blood tests etc can tell you anything about a persons health….what's so unscientific about blood tests? 🤔

I can't personally provide a straightforward answer because I'm not a doctor and I don't have access to their diagnostic tools or perhaps the guides they have been given to use before landing at an 'obesity' diagnosis (or not).

I understand the concerns in the summary, however I notice that they said they think it will steer people away from prevention methods which I don't think is going to happen. I do think that prevention is going to be a key focus and warning people to not get obese in the first place. That kind of makes it sounds like they won't bother with prevention because they'll think ah well if they become obese we'll just stick them all on medication. I don't think that's going to happen. The plan seems to be to 'treat' those who currently are considered to have 'obesity' and to encourage prevention in the rest of the population.

I would certainly hope that obese people won't be labelled as sick if their body is in fact functioning well and in those cases I would hope that their GP tells them look at the moment your body is pretty healthy despite the weight so you might have a chance to pull it back here…or else it could be lifelong medication for you. Whether people manage to is a different story.

As for the last sentence in the summary I think they are really going to have to keep emphasising health….even if you can't lose weight a healthy lifestyle can still benefit you and cut the risk of x, y and z. But that's really a population wide problem anyway, even among a lot of normal weight people, a lot of people have very unhealthy lifestyles.

Quantum Erasure

Is it like a catch 22. Being obese is a risk factor for some diseases, but you can't be obese unless you have one of these diseases

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163549#Comment_122163549

You can be obese without having some of the health issues, but you wouldn't be considered to have obesity unless you have some of the associated health issues.

It does seem like the language is causing problems, especially if WHO are trying to also push that 'X amount of people live with overweight'. It just doesn't work and sounds ridiculous 😅

To confuse the whole situation even more or perhaps even help to explain it, there's also Normal weight obesity/metabolically obese normal weight AKA 'skinny fat'

Normal weight obesity is definitely referred to as a condition or syndrome in some literature but not sure if any health departments officially recognise or refer to it as that, but many of those people are at risk of or would have the same issues as people with obesity and some are apparently at higher risk, depending on where they store their fat.

So you can be 'obese' but your body is otherwise healthy

You can also be normal weight but your body is not and has a lot of the markers of 'obesity'.

So the health issues are definitely something separate to the actual label of 'obese' going by the BMI scale.

Beechwoodspark

how they ever thought that sneeering and passing remarks at ppl was acceptable I will never know.

I am glad it’s gone.

Sunny Dayz

It is a pity that the show has been cancelled. It probably had run its course although in recent years it was trying to move away from focusing solely on weight and getting overweight people to try and run to looking at other health metrics and exercises. Was not a fan of the focus on the sob stories but what it did show was that there were complex reasons for why someone was overweight and at time I felt the issues (eg mental health) may have been outside the remit of the show. But what the show did do while it was on air was influence its viewers. I would see in the dark, cold wet evenings in Jan/Feb people out walking the streets in their hi-vis, but the numbers reduce dramatically by March. You see in supermarkets promotions and advertising of health ingredients for the OT recipes but again once the show finished airing the supermarket was no longer advertising veg or fresh meat/meat substitutes - it's back to processed high sugar/salt foods with higher profit margins.

The show's purpose wasn't to cure obesity but it certainly scratched the surface and brought attention to it. I don't think it wasn't overly successful in "curing" people - I think maybe one person per season actually continued to lose weight or maintain a healthier lifestyle. Look the show wasn't perfect by any means but it did try.

drury..

The show is just there to entertain