ESB did not upgrade to 100A fuse

...Ghost...

Hi all. hoping someone here can help.

I got solar installed in March. I had my tails upgraded to 25sq and my CU replaced as part of the work. For export, I needed a smart meter. The existing fuse in the meter box was a 60/80A. I asked ESBN for a smart meter and also asked if it was possible to connect the tails and upgrade to a 100A fuse on the same visit to save everyone time and hassle. It was an ordeal getting everything done, but suffice to say the ESB messed up the appointment time and I couldn't be there. My OH had to leave work early to accommodate access, as my meter is inside the hallway.

Anyway, I left a note in the meter box with the 3 jobs to be done. Tails connected, Smart Meter installed, 100A fuse upgrade. The technician said the fuse upgrade wasn't on the job list and that I could only have an 80A fuse. He said a 100A wouldn't fit. I was under the impression that the fuses were physically the same size, or am I wrong?

I have emailed ESBN about this, asking for the work to be completed. The entire reason for getting the tails upgraded and mostly why I upgraded the CU, was to allow for a fuse upgrade. Here is a pic of my meter cabinet below. Is there something I am missing? The only thing I can think of is the cut out fuse on the right, which I think is 80A. Maybe that needs to be changed to 100A before the main fuse can be done? Any help on this appreciated.

allinthehead

MCB on the right is your house main overcurrent protection, nothing to do with Esbn. 80 Amp for 16kva.

Did you pay the fee to Esbn?

TerraSolis

What's your MIC? Are you looking for an MIC upgrade or why the 100 amp fuse ?

Jonathan

Did you pay ESBN for the fuse upgrade?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129593#Comment_122129593

I paid them €200. Doesn't say exactly what for.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129585#Comment_122129585

When I made the request for the meter I asked for the tails connection and upgrade to 100A fuse. I know the meter is free, so the fee in my view was for the tails upgrade, which was to allow for the fuse upgrade. I paid the €200 fee for this work.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129660#Comment_122129660

That's for change of tails. Upgrade to 16 kva supply costs a hell of a lot more than that, last time I checked it was 1k, heard recently it was 2k but I can't confirm that.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129588#Comment_122129588

I don't know the MIC. Both EI and ESB website are down right now, so if I could check there, I would. Would this be listed on my bill?

If my thinking is correct, a 60A fuse allows around 14kW draw? 80A allows 18kW and 100A about 23kW.

I want a fuse upgrade to allow for some extra head room if I am drawing a big load. We have 2 EVs. We will likely have 3 EVs in the next year or two, so will not be uncommon to charge 2 at the same time overnight. This would draw up to 14kW alone. I will be installing 30 - 45kWh of battery storage which I will be charging at night. Even if charging at 2kW, that is potentially another 6kW being drawn if 3 are charging. This is before taking into account the dishwasher, washing machine, or whatever else. I want as much as a buffer as possible without going for crazy upgrades.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129743#Comment_122129743

So my supply must be what, 12kva?

I'll see what they come back with then. I've already paid a chunk of change to get everything else up to scratch.

RetroEncabulator

The fuse is only a protective device. They may need to run a new wires to your to your house to handle the load. It’s not just a case of swapping out the fuse, unless the wiring is actually capable of supply the load.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129771#Comment_122129771

That makes sense. I wish I had been home when it was being done. Apparently it was a young lad doing the work and when I spoke to him, he wasn't clear about why he was putting an 80A fuse in. As far as I know, that's what was in there anyway, but I never saw the physical fuse. He was making out that the fuse holder was too small, which made no sense to me. I thought the holders were the same size in all modern installs. My old 60A fuse was replaced a couple years ago with a new cylindrical fuse in the holder seen in the pic marked 60/80A.

TerraSolis

12 kVa is the 'standard' connection size and 16 kVa is the 'enhanced' size.

There's potentially a good bit more to an MIC upgrade rather than simply swapping the fuse - and you'd have to pay. For rates, see here (when ESBN website is back up):https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/esb-networks-dac-statement-of-charges.pdf

Better to implement load balancing etc. on your EV chargers and so on. Capacity is expensive and you'll pay a lot to upgrade to a level that might only be needed for a few hours a month. I really urge to look at demand-side measures before you go down the over-engineering route.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129761#Comment_122129761

Ya standard supply is 12kva, enhanced supply is 16kva.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129807#Comment_122129807

I'll work out how I could make 80A do the job without blowing anything. Maybe I might get lucky and they will do the work for free 😂.

They completely messed up and took 3 agents and over a month of delay just to schedule an appointment. I was then practically called a liar when I rang on the appointment day to confirm the time I was given and if they knew when the technician would be calling. I had to scramble to get back to work and have the OH come home early for the technician who arrived 3 hours after the time I had been given. Not his fault, but the woman on the phone (who was a little rude to begin with) claimed it was impossible that I was given a specific time for a tech to call. No suggestion that I might have mistaken what I was told, just a flat "No, you couldn't have been given a specific time, because we don't do that."

nogoodnamesleft

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129771#Comment_122129771

+1, The fuse in the cutout will be specified to the rating of the service cable feeding the house. So if the house is a older build the service cable may not be rated to a 100A fuse.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058351388/esb-did-not-upgrade-to-100a-fuse

He said a 100A wouldn't fit. I was under the impression that the fuses were physically the same size, or am I wrong?

The 100A fuse is different AFAIK. You have a 12kVA connection with a 60A fuse. You can pay the best part of €2k to upgrade to the 16kVA connection. You might be lucky and already have an 80A fuse. That happens quite a bit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129660#Comment_122129660

The €200 you paid is just their standard call out rate. You wont get a connection upgrade for that €200 so I think you misunderstood the process somewhere along the line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129677#Comment_122129677

I paid the €200 fee for this work.

You didnt though. Thats their call out fee and connecting the new tails. If you, for instance, blew the ESB fuse by overloading it they would charge you that €200 to come out and replace the fuse (first time is free I think).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129752#Comment_122129752

The 80A fuse will do you fine. The key is load sensing charge points.

Appliances like dishwashers etc wont matter. They will come on for a few minutes to heat water and the rest of the cycle is small current. When they do heat water the charge points will ramp down by the appropriate amount to protect the fuse and ramp up again once the water heating portion of the cycle is done.

I've 2 EV's, heat pump and all the other usual appliances all running at the same time and i've no issues. I often go to 75A (the limit I set on the charge points).

You are also unlikely to have both EV's charging all night every night but even if you do the load sensing will protect everything and over the 9hr night rate you will be fine.

Looking for 100A fuse is just going to take you to unnecessary expense and you dont really need it.

I would recommend the 16kVA (80A) enhanced connection though. You need to check what the main fuse rating is on your consumer unit. If thats still a 60A fuse it wont make any difference what the ESB fuse is rated for because you'll trip your own fuse first. Did you electrician put an 80A fuse on your main consumer unit?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130848#Comment_122130848

Cheers for the info. My fuse actually blew twice in the past 8 years. Once when I was demolishing a shed, the 63A fuse blew and was replaced the same day, like for like. It went again 2 years ago. Not sure why, but the technician updated the fuse holder to a modern one and put in a 60/80A fuse. I wasn't charged either time.

My CU main fuse is an 80A. I just checked now.

I think I could get away with 80A, which is what the technician apparently installed on Thursday. I don't think paying €2k is worth it for the extra head room right now. The reason I had it in mind though was to avail of the shorter cheap rates around 5c for the ~3 hours where I would like to top up the cars and the batteries (especially in winter) for as little money as possible. The extra few kWh in the short time would make a difference, especially if I was to sell any back to the grid at the higher rate. Last year, we consumed about 14k units, so we are heavy users.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130926#Comment_122130926

That's a switch, your main overcurrent is beside the meter.

I got a 16kva upgrade on a 1980 house. 100amp ESBN fuse, 80amp MCB in the meter box.

Didn't have to upgrade the main supply cable or the DNO head.

80amp ESBN fuse is standard on a 12kVA supply.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130957#Comment_122130957

Did you electrician put an 80A fuse on your main consumer unit?

The CU switch is what I checked when asked by @KCross about the CU.

The main over current…that's the one circled below? Or are you referring to the main meter fuse? The lingo/terms can get crossed all too often. I believe both are rated at 80A, including the CU switch.

My house I think is a 78 build. Would be super if there was no need to upgrade the incoming cable.

...Ghost...

I found a photo from before the tails were upgraded. The old, old fuse can be seen on the bottom right.

unkel

Following this with interest, I have asked the same questions before. Not a hope I will pay this to the ESB though for a 12kVA → 16kVA upgrade

There would be the guts of a grand on top of that for a new CU and associated works. That said, with the current rates, the extra battery charging I could do at night in a 3 hours slot, would put a payback period of around 4 years on this upgrade

slave1

Do it

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132129#Comment_122132129

We've talked about this, stop calculating payback periods 🤣

Also, can we not source an 100a fuse and just put it in there (provided the tails, CU, wiring is up to scratch)? ESBN ever asks, play dumb?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132169#Comment_122132169

Payback periods are essential! We all need to do the right thing in the transition to renewables, but not at any cost.

As for messing with the fuse sizes, it would bring your home's insurance in jeopardy. Not risking that.

GreeBo

Have ESB confirmed that they can get that load to your house?

My Arch & M&E Engineer said they are starting to see push back due to too many houses adding chargers and the local network simply not being up to it.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132300#Comment_122132300

ESBN have known for a good 10 years that the demand for electricity would be increasing by at least 10-15% per year for decades to come. What have they been doing, sitting on their hands? If so, that would be stunningly incompetent.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132169#Comment_122132169

Also, can we not source an 100a fuse and just put it in there (provided the tails, CU, wiring is up to scratch)? ESBN ever asks, play dumb?

I believe the fuse is physically different and putting a 100A fuse into a holder that is designed for 60/80A is just asking for a fire.

Also, the fuse holder itself is not your property and it has a tamper seal on it so acting dumb is unlikely to help. If the seal is broken and there is an odd fuse in there I think you'd have a hard time saying it was the fuse fairy did it! 😀

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130926#Comment_122130926

I think I could get away with 80A, which is what the technician apparently installed on Thursday. I don't think paying €2k is worth it for the extra head room right now.

If you already have an 80A fuse in your consumer unit then you dont need to do anymore or pay the €2k. You already have access to 80A.

If the ESB put in a 100A fuse for you on their end you would still be limited by the 80A on your consumer unit so you dont need the 100A fuse unless you plan to bring your electrician back out and do more work to increase your consumer unit. That would seem excessive to me.

Like I said, I charge two EV's, heat pump and appliances at the same time with 80A. It works fine with load sensing charge points.

If you had a 60A fuse on your consumer unit that would be more of a challenge but it sounds like you have access to 80A so you're good to go from what I can tell. Is the new Hager MCB on the bottom right corner of your meter box rated for 80A?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132465#Comment_122132465

I’ve just been contacted by ESB. So it would seem they installed an 80A fuse, but I only have an 8kVa incoming. Really they should have left a 60A fuse, right?

The woman said I would need a 20kVa line to get 100A fuse and that they would need to bring in a new line. I said I’m not an electrician but that I hadn’t heard of an 8kVa incoming and that a standard connection was 12kVa, enhanced was 16kVa for 100A fuse.

I asked if there was a charge to upgrade to the standard 12kVa and I was told there is not. I just have to apply.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130957#Comment_122130957

I got a 16kva upgrade on a 1980 house. 100amp ESBN fuse, 80amp MCB in the meter box.

It seems to depend on who you talk to or what area you are in. Did you physically eyeball that fuse yourself or just what they told you?

And if it is 100A is it in the 60/80A fuse holder or did they swap the holder out too?

When I got the smart meter in I spoke to the installer guy. He told me that a 100A fuse would not fit in the 60/80A holder. Im taking him at his word and it would be odd when it comes to safety that they would mislabel the incoming mains like that but maybe they relabeled yours or something?

Ultimately, in any case the thing that matters for the end user is the consumer unit limit. If thats rated and certified for 80A then you have all you need in terms of an enhanced connection.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132490#Comment_122132490

Old houses could/would have an 8kVA connection. 12kVA has been standard for decades though.

I asked if there was a charge to upgrade to the standard 12kVa and I was told there is not. I just have to apply.

I think thats correct. Everyone can have a 12kVA connection "for free". The charges only come in for the enhanced connection (16kVA).

You obviously have to pay for any electrical works from the meter box into your house (tails, consumer unit etc).

So it would seem they installed an 80A fuse, but I only have an 8kVa incoming. Really they should have left a 60A fuse, right?

That is odd alright. What is the rating on the MCB on the bottom right corner of the meter box? If thats 80A it means you can use 80A. It would be odd for an electrician to signoff on an 80A tail and for the ESB to not have their cable from the pole to match that rating.

Methinks you need a chat with your electrician and try to understand what exactly he has done and what certs he has provided etc. Something odd about it now.