Young losing their IQ advantage over old ( the Times )

aidanodr

So - looks like we have bright future ahead indeed? Surely the consequence of scrolling all day and with little or no attention span? Ability of Critical thinking a distant memory?

Generation born in 1980s has made no advance in cognitive ability while over-65s are smarter than before

The gap in brain performance between the young and old is closing, in part because theIQ gains once seen in each new generation appear to have stalled, a study suggests ( new research, by Professor Stephen Badham of Nottingham Trent University ).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/young-losing-their-iq-advantage-over-old-k3pg2j8pj

ARTICLE ABOVE IS PAYWALLED - But here is a NON PAYWALLED article from what appears to be the source of this study:

https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2024/04/brain-function-of-older-adults-improving

There was a COMEDY film released in 2006 called IDIOCRACY. These days people are saying its now a DOCUMENTARY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lai9QhBibk

Real Donald Trump

No wonder the country is in the state it is.

threeball

I've been saying this for years. Humans reached their peak in the 60s and 70s and its been a pretty sharp decline since. The need for critical thinking is reducing every day and instead people are fed mindless crap to fill their day. Go 20yrs on from here and unless AI figures something out we won't have alot of human achievements going on. Just more nonsense like the next generation of Facebook and tiktok.

Technology is killing us, we are bombarded with tons of worthless data and completely over-reliant on it. There is a significant lack of character in younger generations too, any fun and blagarding is being knocked out of us, PC brigade has people unable to express themselves freely. Biggest crippler is the phone.

I can see the world as depicted in the movie 'Idiocracy' eventually becoming a reality. Crops will be hydrated with Gatorade "for the electrolytes".

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083651#Comment_122083651

True, will be interesting to see where are in the next 10 years

20silkcut

Boredom is almost eradicated. There are young people now who have never known what it’s like to sit in a car for a two hour journey with absolutely nothing to do only look out the window and play with the window winder or push down lock. And if you didn’t go out on a Saturday night you were stuck in the living room with your parents and granny watching Kenny live followed by a decade or two of the rosary . No wonder there was even mid size villages with night clubs back in those days.

We need boredom back. Genuine mind numbing boredom sparks many great things. The phone has robbed us of boredom.
But then Boredom probably spawned the phone so it would just re-emerge again?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083630#Comment_122083630

And in 2080, some people living then will say that, "humans reached their peak in the 2010s, 2020s" etc. Every generation points to the past for nostalgic reasons, not because what they claim is true. The people saying the 60s, 70s etc. were the "best" probably couldn't last 48-hours there, before wanting to return back to 2024.

On the IQ point, I don't value IQ scores in the way that some do.

You could have a person with a very high IQ who lacks social skills and couldn't work productively in a large organization.

IQ is only one side of the story, a pretty bad side if that becomes the sole focus.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084155#Comment_122084155

But the whole point of the story is IQ? It has nothing to do with people in the workforce or ability to work in a large organization. Without high IQ you dont get the advancements that we take for granted today, social skills dont get you microchips or the internet or to space.

Your argument might as well be that, you could have a person with great social skills but doesnt have two legs so couldnt play hop scotch. The very essence of the point they are making is that IQ hasnt advanced, like it has for every other generation.

ancapailldorcha

OP is just a link dump and a video. Not very convincing.

crusd

It is without doubt that thinking and the value of thought is deteriorating. I would suggest that even those in their 40's and 50's who learned to think for themselves are regressing as they "google it" instead of thinking about it. On the flip side, a lot af people would be advised to "google it" instead of taking everything they encounter on whatsapp/facebook/X/tiktok etc at face value. Its not really the information age that is dumbing people down, its the way we use it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084172#Comment_122084172

There will always be a minority of extremely inventive, creative, and entrepreneurial people in society.

The idea that this will suddenly stop is for the birds.

Similarly, somebody could score low on an "IQ test" but perform high in creativity and inventiveness.

The very idea of IQ tests makes me cringe, especially the people who want to enter Mensa for egomaniacal, narcissistic reasons.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084199#Comment_122084199

IQ is a measurement of ones reasoning ability, if you never have to reason anything because its all handed to you on a plate then you are not going to have much of an IQ.

What advancements have their been from creativity?

Again, the very purpose of the article is to point out how IQ levels are no longer increasing, your whataboutery doesnt change that I am afraid.

The only person to bring in Mensa was you. Did you not make the grade perhaps…

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084214#Comment_122084214

I don't follow the logic of the argument, though.

Generation born in 1980s has made no advance in cognitive ability while over-65s are smarter than before.

The gap in brain performance between the young and old is closing, in part because the IQ gains once seen in each new generation appear to have stalled, a study suggests ( new research, by Professor Stephen Badham of Nottingham Trent University ).

First, there must be a ceiling on how "smart" humans can become. The idea that IQ can increase in each generation to the same extent as the generation before is absurd. Stalling and reversing are two very different things.

Second, over-65s are "smarter than before", meaning that the gap compared to younger people has no choice but to close.

I don't have access to the full article, but I would like to see the actual stats that show the average IQ in specific age groups in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000, and 2010s — for a full comparison.

Saying that old people are smarter than before, therefore younger people are dumber, doesn't appear to follow. And as I say, stalling and reversing are not synonymous terms.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084245#Comment_122084245

"Generation born in 1980s has made no advance in cognitive ability while over-65s are smarter than before

The gap in brain performance between the young and old is closing, in part because the IQ gains once seen in each new generation appear to have stalled, a study suggests ( new research, by Professor Stephen Badham of Nottingham Trent University )."

The reason it doesn't appear to follow is that it doesn't follow and that the article doesn't imply it does. Perhaps a good example of poor reasoning skills?

Todays over-65s are smarter than the last generations over-65s.

Todays 30-40 year olds are not smarter than the last generations.

Ergo the gap between over-65s and 30-40 year olds is less than it was previously.

Why must there be a ceiling on how smart humans can become?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084403#Comment_122084403

Why must there be a ceiling on how smart humans can become?

There is no evidence that "IQ" can naturally increase at the same rate forever, that's why; that it is somehow infinite.

Clearly there must be a reasonable, average limit.

monkeybutter

the real issue is that there are people thick enough to buy into the above

magicbastarder

i think many posters are reading the article the wrong way (trying to confirm their own biases?)

it does not say the young are getting thicker. it says the rate of improvement of IQ has slowed. the article is paywalled so i don't know if there are any possible explanations proffered; maybe education has become more universal, or improvements in nutrition plateaued?

there was (or should have been) a measurable jump in IQ after leaded petrol was banned, IIRC.

raspberrypi67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083651#Comment_122083651

could not agree more, you see kids at such a young age with ipads and phones, its utterly mad. My kids are at the 20 mark , some older, we used to control the time they'd have on devices.

Not sure its necessarily IQ level per sa, partly parents fault not fostering talent's that end up being wasted….

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084675#Comment_122084675

@magicbastarder Re the article is PAYWALLED - Yip it is unfortunately. I have access to it but is too long to post the whole thing. Its also published in the Telegraph, also paywalled :(

Anyway - here is a bit more of the aricle that may be of help - sort of meat and veg of the article from what I could see:

Badham reviewed 60 studies that had looked at cognition in older and younger adults, to explore how differences between the generations had changed. Older adults tended to be defined as those over 65, while researchers typically used university students, aged about 18-22, to study the young.

Overall, the evidence pointed to improving performance among older adults, with nearly70 per cent of the measures used showing better performance in later cohorts of older adults than in earlier ones. Only 5 per cent showed the reverse, with the rest showing no clear trend.

“In other words, the average older person today is cleverer than the average older person was in 1980,” said Badham.

By contrast, improvements in young adults’ cognition appear to have flattened around 2000, closing the gap between generations. “When we compare young and older adults today, the gap is smaller than it was in the past,” Badham said. “Therefore, the decline an individual might expect to experience as they become older is smaller than originally thought. In other words, we can expect to be more cognitively able than our grandparents were when we reach their age.”

aidanodr

Later yesterday I saw this tweet and thought it may be related to this also:

Grade inflation is completely out of control at Irish universities, with 25% of students now gaining first class honours. The figure should not rise much beyond 10% but we’ve turned universities into supermarkets + this is the result. We urgently need to review marking standards.

https://twitter.com/JohnOBrennan2/status/1785230805150650496

I assume this grade inflation means people now getting higher class honours and but may not deserve same, did not do the work to achieve these marks? So setting up a sort of false up and coming cohort into a workplace?

IQ testing has inate social/cultural biases so is a limited way of assessing intelligence, it is also biased against the patterns of thought modern technology is encouraging. There are many technical jobs that young people do which the older generation literally don't understand.

I think if the data is showing a decline in IQ test score the first thing we need to do is look at IQ testing as a way of measuring intelligence.

aidanodr

@Shoog Have a look at the post 2 above yours - #19 .. The post in OP is paywalled, I have access so I posted a bit more of the meat / veg of the article in post #19 ( article too long to post all ) .. the head of study mentions they looked at cognition in older and younger adults

And found a nonpaywalled article which appears to be the source of all this:

https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2024/04/brain-function-of-older-adults-improving

aidanodr

Found a NON PAYWALLED Article which appears to be the source of all this:

https://www.ntu.ac.uk/about-us/news/news-articles/2024/04/brain-function-of-older-adults-improving

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084838#Comment_122084838

I think if the data is showing a decline in IQ test score

it's not, though. IQ test scores were steadily rising for many years; that rise has stalled (regardless of what value you place in IQ tests).

Jequ0n

It’s hardly surprising considering the ever increasing push for thought conformity that undermines critical thinking.

AI is undoubtedly a major factor as well though. I am working with a large number of people who admittedly work smarter because they use machine learning to bridge the gaps in their knowledge, but they struggle to fix and document processes, and they also don’t see an issue with it.

magicbastarder

AI is undoubtedly a major factor as well though.

ah here, how? AI has been a consumer product for barely a year or two; nowhere near long enough to be able to actually measure its effect (if indeed, there is any).

if anything, the world is far more diverse in its thinking than it used to be; ireland especially.

quokula

The data is showing pretty much the opposite of what you're proclaiming. It's not saying young people are getting dumber, it's saying that (a) the rate in increase has slowed a little, and more significantly (b) people are not getting dumb as they get older as fast as they used to.

Direct quote from the source (rather than the newspaper's take on it):
"Therefore, the decline an individual might expect to experience as they become older is smaller than originally thought. In other words, we can expect to be more cognitively able than our grandparents were when we reach their age."

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084932#Comment_122084932

I meant asking ChatGPT to write code for them but then being unable to replicate the learning without additional help. But they are fast and deliver results.

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084933#Comment_122084933

Also from orig study article above:

In contrast, findings show that that young adults’ cognition remained relatively flat across time – closing the gap between generations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084790#Comment_122084790

The study shows that older people have higher IQs compared to older people in the past; and that younger people have largely similar IQs to younger people in the past.

If anything, the only substantive conclusion we can draw here is that older people have on average higher IQs compared to older people in the past.

That cannot be translated into "younger people are dumber". That's logically fallacious reasoning.

yagan

Isn't the study about the UK?

randd1

I put it down to a lack of effort being put into getting the ride of a Saturday night.

Lads used to have their wits about them. Women definitely had to have their wits about them.

Now they just get messed up on cocaine, have a flirt over snapchat, and then have a fumble down an alleyway.

No conversation, no thinking, no effort required. That's where they're falling down.

magicbastarder

that's not clear: "The three-part study reviewed evidence from 60 independent research papers"

the study was done in the UK, but it does not state where the research in the 60 research papers was done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084933#Comment_122084933

Yes seeing the actual text it quite clear that the headline misrepresents the actual study in a fundamental way. Looks like a sort of culture wars kids are not what they used to be puff piece.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085180#Comment_122085180

I read an interesting article about the differences between curriculums in the UK and Ireland and how the UK system doesn't prepare students for change, in that at 15 they can choose just three O levels to prepare for Uni, and later life.

I don't know the particulars, maybe someone who went through that system can enlighten us here, but I was struck by how poor her classmates were on basic maths, mental calculations that were easy for us required them to hit their smartphones, and they were on a science course.

I had the same experience in Australia in a trading job where I could make quick mental calculations on the spot and be thought of as a wizard by young aussie grads.

The thing I found most challenging in both countries was how lacking in interest in working in other countries most graduates were. Maybe it was a confirmation bias where being surrounded by foreign students, including my wife might lead to belief that this was as good as it got.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085219#Comment_122085219

i wouldn't say it's fundamental in that it's not an outright falsehood; it's more an issue of spin than misrepresentation.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085262#Comment_122085262

Yet while all the big tech firms place their EMEA HQs in Ireland, they manage their R&D and AI units in the UK.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084199#Comment_122084199

Regardless of whether IQ is a good metric of intelligence, it's quite evident that younger generations aren't quite a clued in as the ones who went before them. I find, you have to spoon-fed them in order to get something done or a project complete. If it strays anywhere outside of anything they do repetitively day to day there is zero initiative or an ability to work out a solution. Its lift the phone and ask how to get round the issue or just stop completely.

There's more evidence of this dumbing down that just IQ tests

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085935#Comment_122085935

Its been going on a while now that GEN Z hate phone calls and wont make phone calls. Seems to be an anxiety thing:

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/call-declined-why-gen-z-won-t-pick-up-the-phone-20220920-p5bjkf.html

Also its apparently uncool to leave a voice mail on the phones answering machine system. So yes, get the call but dont expect a message left if you miss that call

https://www.rd.com/article/phone-etiquette-mistake/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/29/gen-x-voice-notes-podcast-phone-message

magicbastarder

a friend of mine recently did a postgrad cyberpsychology course and one thing he was telling me is that there's been a measurable rise in perfectionism over the last few decades. whether that's the rise in helicopter parenting, the effect of social media, etc. is still not decided AFAIK.

but it doesn't just express itself as a desire to complete a job to perfection, say; it also causes a fear of starting a job in case it goes wrong. of course, me being of my generation, i wonder is that the effect of social media at work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085935#Comment_122085935

I think you're confusing intelligence as it related to "IQ" and a poor work ethic.

They aren't the same thing.

I agree with you on the poor work ethic / spoonfed part though.

tohaltuwi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084199#Comment_122084199

I worked in the public libraries, way back in the early 80s a family and their neighbours from a certain road in Terenure were all members of Mensa, staff were told the 3 month old baby was too. Almost entire end of the road was filled with members of Mensa, all of whom who could circumvent borrowing limitation by decree of City Librarian who was a friend of the head bottkewadher in Mensa, who lived on that road. I’m sure there were some very intelligent people, but it was a complete farce the way the babe in arms was deemed to have an IQ of 150+.

Interestingly, Brendan O’Carroll is a card carrying member of Mensa.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085826#Comment_122085826

Isn't Shannon increasingly hosting r&d relocations since brexit?

My wife's work involves developing medical devices and slowly UK partners are being phased out of the process and replaced with EU options.

No big tech industry want employees with initiative, they want highly technically skilled people who can follow procedures to the absolute letter. If an employee deviates in the slightest way then an exception procedure is initiated and this brings with it huge employee stress.

So perfectionism of a certain type is an absolute necessity for a big tech employee - if you haven't got it you will be out the door in short measure.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086147#Comment_122086147

Work ethic is off but even after receiving either a guiding hand or a chewing they are incapable of figuring it out for themselves. There's no lateral thinking, its either linear or its nothing. Anything outside of bog standard, seen it before basics and its like you asked them to work through some quantum physics.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085935#Comment_122085935

Think this sums up your point.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086318#Comment_122086318

The old man yelled at the cloud because he read on facebook that the cloud was a 5G tower.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086085#Comment_122086085

Phone calls are incredibly inefficient, I work 90% in emails for communications. It’s easy to prove what was said and far faster than talking on the phone. Most people working do this regardless of their generation.

Gary_dunne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086446#Comment_122086446

100%. In the majority of industries now phone calls are actively discouraged due to no audit trail of what information has been discussed. Try showing an auditor your phone call history and see how well that goes.

aidanodr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086446#Comment_122086446

Yip agree .. i mainly use email, WA, messenger with my clients. BUT I do have people who call also & if i am with someone else and dont answer its handy to be left a voice mail or a text. The reason I say this is because of a thing outside this threads subject. Of late ( last 6 months or more inc today ) I get "legit" 087, 086 etc calls which I see have rung me when I look at the phone post meeting etc, no voicemail or text .. ring back saying I missed your call to find they never rang me, never heard of me and are up the other end of the country. It seems there is a spoofing scam thing going on and the comms companies can do nothing about it, it is extremely annoying.

threeball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086318#Comment_122086318

Well done for pulling up one of the most overused memes on the Internet and proving my point.