Credit note, not refund - when shop cannot supply suitable item

ozmo

Bought shoes in well known specialist shop in Dublin - talked into badly fitting ones as they didnt have my size - stupid I know - but I was told they were experts and I desparitely needed very good walking shoes.

When i tried return them very soon after - only store credit was possible ("Shop Policy").

Shop has very limited stock - they dont have a size(wide) in office suitable style (black/dark) that will fit.

Im stuck with a 180 euro credit note I cannot use… this normal? :(

I should just take the loss on the chin - my fault?

mrslancaster

Afaik if it's a purchase made in person, the shop doesn't have to offer anything if it's a change of mind. Unless there is a fault, something tears, breaks, rips etc. within a certain period, and you can't use the item, then the shop has to replace, repair, give credit note or refund.

Smee_Again

If you bought the shoes based on information provided to and subsequent recommendation of the salesperson and they are not fit for purpose then you are entitled to one of a repair, replacement or refund.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077671#Comment_122077671

They are offering replacement, that is what a credit note allows for.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077685#Comment_122077685

A credit note is a credit note, it is not considered a replacement under consumer protection laws.

If the retailer is unable to offer a replacement that's their problem and they need to offer a repair or a refund.

GBX

Can they at least order in the suitable item for you? At least you could use the credit note that way?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077691#Comment_122077691

They are offering replacement.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077718#Comment_122077718

Then why does the OP have a credit note and not a pair of walking shoes?

CramCycle

Did they tell you they fitted or did you say anything at the time? If they said they fitted perfectly and they don't, that's one thing, but your post reads like you decided bad shoes were better than no shoes.

Also are they bad fitting because they aren't your size, if they offered you store credit, can you take that and buy the correct size when they come in?

ozmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077718#Comment_122077718

But thats the thing - they are not :/ Very limited stock - nothing suitable.

I was fooled by their computer assisted measuring devices and confident sales guy - even though it was smaller than I normally get - was told it would be fine - it wasnt.

pleasant Co.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349425/credit-note-not-refund-when-shop-cannot-supply-suitable-item

2 questions for you:

1. How were you “talked into” buying shoes that you felt were a bad fit?
2. Did the shop or shoe seller claim to be an expert in shoe fit and where or when was the expertise claim made?
   

Depending on your answers you may be entitled to one of the 3 R’s mentioned elsewhere in this thread, a shop’s policy cannot override that. You may equally be entitled to nothing at all and be quite lucky to have been offered a credit note, it’s unclear at present.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077724#Comment_122077724

Because he/she hasn't decided what to replace the original item with yet. He/she could do so at any time he/she wanted.

And to point out something obvious, direct replacement would mean another pair of shoes that don't fit. Sure you want to go down this road?

pleasant Co.

ah I see you posted while I was posting.

As a follow up, did you try the shoes on in the shop?

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077795#Comment_122077795

Look, the CRA is very clear. A credit note is not a remedy under it, in fact the only time a credit note gets a mention in the legislation is in relation to the offence of indicating that refunds will only be made via credit note.

Also, no one but you said the replacement had to be a direct replacement.

Maybe its you you should be asking if you want to go down this road because you clearly have no idea about consumer rights and protections.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077856#Comment_122077856

The credit note facilitates replacement. They have offered replacement and given the OP the means to make that replacement, with a wider scope than they strictly need to.

The shop has offered to replace the item with absolutely anything the OP wants from their stock, how is that not replacement?

You said the shop has to give repair, replacement, or refund, and they have chosen replacement. Whats the problem?

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078031#Comment_122078031

We’re going around in circles; a credit note is neither a repair, a replacement or a refund. If retailers had the option of offering credit notes then 1) refunds would never be offered and 2) it would be mentioned in the legislation 3) facilitating a replacement is not the same thing as providing a replacement 4) there is a reasonable timelimit on the retailer to provide the replacement.

The retailer has not lived up to their obligations under consumer law.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078076#Comment_122078076

The shop wants to provide replacement, and have given the OP the means to do so.

Unless you want to say that the shop should immediately hand the OP another pair of the shoes to replace the ones they originally bought? Because a minute ago you didn't want to talk about direct replacement.

magicbastarder

As the OP stated, 'they dont have a size(wide) in office suitable style (black/dark) that will fit'.

So they're unable to fulfil what the customer wants and thus cannot offer a replacement. So a credit note is not a replacement.

XsApollo

There is nothing faulty about the shoes.
did you not try them on?

If you tried them on and agreed to buy them thereafter then why would you be covered?
a credit note is goodwill here.

now if you didn’t try them on and the shop staff said they would fit then you might have grounds for a R,R,R which a credit note is neither of.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078108#Comment_122078108

The original pair didn't fit, so if the obligation is to replace, then they should give another pair of the exact same shoes. That still won't fit.

If you and others want to say that the OP should get to choose something that isn't exactly like for like, then how is that not what the credit note is, a way for the OP to choose something other than the exact product they bought?

This is not a meaningless distinction, it is fundamental. Can't have it both ways here.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078089#Comment_122078089

what they want to do is irrelevant.

The OP has not been offered a repair, a replacement or a refund.

If the shop can’t offer a replacement within a reasonable timeframe then they must offer a refund or a repair

It’s that simple.

magicbastarder

the grey area here is whether the shop accepted the goods were unfit or not - if they did accept the goods were not fit, they did not offer what they should have, RRR.

but by the sounds of it, they may have taken them back and offered the voucher as a gesture of good faith, but that they had not sold a faulty item. if the sole had come off, say, that would have made the situation much clearer.

Sadb

something not fitting doesn’t mean that it is not fit for purpose though or doesn’t fit it’s description though. It really depends on if you tried them on or if they were sold as guaranteed to fit, without you trying them on.

From the info supplied, it sounds like they did not violate any consumer laws.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078260#Comment_122078260

You keep saying that they have not offered replacement, but have shown nothing to back up that assertation.

The OP could have €180 of goods in their hands right now if they wanted, so I say that the store has by definition offered replacement.

That the OP might want something the store doesn't have, that it never had, does not change that offer one little bit. The minute you accept that it doesn't have to be like for like replacement then you also have to accept that it is no longer a black and white issue.

The only way your claim holds true is if the replacement has to be like for like, but you tried to dodge that already and we both know why.

AnnieinDundrum

a credit note is not a replacement.

The question is whether the goods are not fit for the purpose.

If you bought walking shoes based on their recommendation and their technology measuring your feet on their assurance that you had the appropriate fit I’m not sure of the law.

you were there in person, tried them on… but listened to them.

my mother had a similar experience with special insoles and special shoes. The assistant insisted that they’d be grand after a day or two wearing them. They weren’t. She was offered a replacement which she was happy to take. And got better fitting shoes. Because of their special knowledge she was persuaded to take the original ones. So I guess she might have held out for a refund.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078614#Comment_122078614

A credit note is not a replacement. What you get with the credit note is the replacement.

The shop would let the OP take absolutely anything of equal value from that shop right this minute, it is the OP that doesn't want to take it.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079011#Comment_122079011

You can go round that circle as many times as you like but in Consumer Law in Ireland a Credit Note is not considered Replacement. The CN can be used for an alternate purchase of course but it is not considered as Replacement in law.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079011#Comment_122079011

But he stated they don't have anything else which suits his needs!

If I brought a gas hob back to power city because I was mis-sold it, say, and they offered me a credit note but had no other gas hobs in stock, it'd be laughable to claim that was a 'replacement'.

AyeGer

All not lost, sell the credit note for 150 to someone who can find something in that shop they like.

XsApollo

a credit note is not a replacement if the items were returned under the sales of good act.

That’s the issue here.

There was nothing wrong with the item in question, but a credit note was offered as a goodwill gesture from the shop, where as the OP thinks they should got a RRR.

If the OP tried on the shoes and bought them after that then I don’t see why they would be entitled to a RRR, now if the shop assistant said they would fit and the OP didn’t try them on then that’s a different matter.

AnnieinDundrum

You don’t have to accept a credit note, IF you have a valid reason for the return, faulty or not suitable for purpose.

so a credit note is not a replacement. The law is clear on that.

However the question is whether you have a valid reason for return.

given that you tried them on etc that part is a bit sketchy. The shop might have a valid claim that you are an informed adult and made a decision with no coercion or miss information. So they don’t have to do anything. Not even a credit note. None of us were present for the transaction and don’t know why you bought them.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078474#Comment_122078474

You're the person claiming a credit note would be considered a replacement; you need to back up that assertion.

What I am saying is that the retailer needs to offer one of a Repair, a Refund or a Replacement.

You chimed in to say a Credit Note is a replacement so back that up; point to any source that agrees with you.

AnnieinDundrum

a replacement is something that has the same function.

A pair of shoes in this instance.
you can’t wear a credit note on your feet.

A fridge doesn’t replace a cooker. A gas hob doesn’t replace an electric hob.

magicbastarder

based on the info available - OP was, quote, 'talked into badly fitting ones as they didnt have my size' - then the shop have to 'own' this error.

if the OP had gone into the shop and bought the wrong size of his or her own volition, that's one thing. but if the shop assistant made them a verbal promise that the shoes would be fine despite being the wrong size, the shop erred and should make good that error as they are unable to provide the correct size.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080076#Comment_122080076

It isn’t at all clear that this is anything other than a change of mind, so before you go telling other posters what the retailer has to do, consider that they may have to do nothing and the credit note could be a courtesy.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080691#Comment_122080691

OP went to a specialist shoe shop and was advised to buy a pair of shoes that don't fit.

Its not a change of mind, the shoes are not fit for purpose. Section 17 of the Consumer Rights Act covers it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080707#Comment_122080707

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the op was actually present during the transaction, and tried on the shoes before buying them.

GBX

A shoe is a personal item, be it mass produced by child labourers or hand stitched. If the OP tried them on before completing the transaction, the sales assistant would have to go by their word that they were suitable. Yes, the sales person may have advised various aspects on the shoe, but at the end of the day, if the OP took the item as being a good fit, that's not the sales persons fault.

ozmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077787#Comment_122077787

Dont want to get into too much detail - Shop was recommended after visit to a doctor about sore knees on long walks
- told they were experts for walking shoes.

I asked for size I would normally get - told didnt have it - but a smaller one should be fine once broken in - I suggested not - but gave in after sizing computer scanner and sales guy convinced me otherwise.

Normally I would agree that I bought it - its my fault - but in this case I feel I was measured incorrectly - coincidentally to match what they had in stock and convinced by their systems it was fine. Shoes was only a small part of total bill that day.

They have more stock coming in in two weeks - Im going try then use my credit note then.
They dont know whats coming in - if they dont have what I told them I was looking for - I will ask again for a refund of the credit note, but not hopeful.

Thanks for all comments!

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080906#Comment_122080906

I'm not ignoring that, the shoes still need to fit the purpose for which the OP requires of them.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079761#Comment_122079761

They never had the size that suits his needs. And they likely have lots of other shoes for him to choose from.

He can either have exactly the same gas hob as he took before, or he can have one of the other gas hobs. But what they can't give him is a gas hob that they never had to begin with, no matter that it would be the one he actually wants.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080076#Comment_122080076

I've said multiple times that the credit facilitates the replacement, that whatever he/she takes is the replacement, and that he/she could take that replacement at any time if they wanted to. Try reading what I actually said.

If you aren't going to offer anything more than "no u", then at least be accurate about what I am saying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082063#Comment_122082063

They do fit the purpose, the op tried them on, and paid for a size that isn’t comfortable. I understand it was after receiving advice from the salesperson, but that doesn’t mean the op was obligated to take that advice. There is no indication that the shoes are in any way defective, the op just isn’t happy with them.

Sadb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080707#Comment_122080707

The item not fitting you does not mean that it is not fit for purpose. Not fit for purpose means that the item cannot be used for the purpose that it was made for.

Presumably these shoes do function as shoes, just on a smaller footed person.

ants09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082125#Comment_122082125

Can you quote the section of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act/Consumer Rights Act that says a credit note can act as a replacement ?

Accepting a credit note is a voucher and not a replacement and a credit note can't be relied upon to take away your statutory rights under SGA or CRA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082851#Comment_122082851

TBF, if you want to be pedantic, a replacement would be the same item, and I doubt the op wants the exact same footware again. It is generally accepted that the replacement should be at least the value of the original item. With a credit note, the consumer can pick any item to that value. So I’m not sure why people are getting so hung up on this is the op doesn’t want the same footware again. As has been pointed out, there is no indication that the shoes are defective or not fit for purpose, so the credit note is a lot better than the item being replaced as a courtesy.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082923#Comment_122082923

Agreed, this is a change of mind situation so no onus on the shop to provide an RRR.

OP has explained that shoes should fit once broken in, given they returned them soon after they never gave them a chance to break in, that's their issue.

That said i think the shop just should have issued a refund from a customer relations aspect, though i believe there is no such thing as 'specialist' shoes to alleviate pain and it's all smoke and mirrors to charge a fortune for a pair of shoes.

Smee_Again

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082125#Comment_122082125

The CRA 2022 doesn't require the retailer to facilitate a replacement, it requires them to offer one within a reasonable timeframe. If they can't then they must offer a repair or refund. Sections 23-25 of the CRA 2022

That's me backing up my assertion. Now, you need to back up your claim that facilitating the replacement is considered a replacement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082143#Comment_122082143

No one has said the OP is obligated to take their advice but he did and the shoes are not fit for the purposes he described; section 17B of the CRA.

Not it for purpose does not mean defective. If I go into a hardware shop for something to remove nails from a wall, explain this to the shop and am advised to buy a spanner then that spanner is not fit for purpose. It isn't defective, works fine as a spanner but is absolutely worthless for removing nails.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082204#Comment_122082204

No it doesn't. Not fit for purpose means not fit for "any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them". Also Section 17B of the CRA 2022, and that's a direct quote btw.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084423#Comment_122084423

I hate to break it to you, if you buy the spanner, you aren’t entitled to a refund if it doesn’t remove nails, the spanner will still function if used correctly, and if you buy it to take out nails, that’s on you. The op bought running shoes, there is no indication that the shoes cannot be used for the purposes of running, whereas a spanner is not used to remove nails and no salesperson would advise it be used in such a manner.

You seem to be digging in on this, again, there is no indication that the shoes are defective, the op just says they don’t fit his/her feet comfortably. We have all been there with new shoes.

XsApollo

you are entitled to return items if you were mislead in their function, now wether that applies to trying on shoes in this case is up for debate.
the discussion about wether the op got what they deserved within their rights is moot, as we don’t know the shops take on the situation. If the shop agreed that the return of items was under consumer protection then the credit note isn’t a means of reimbursement. If they took the item back as a gesture of goodwill , then that’s their choice and they gave a credit note.

OP needs to talk to the shop and see their stance, if they can’t agree then take your chance in the small claims court, I don’t think you have grounds myself.

Sadb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084423#Comment_122084423

Go back and read section 17b including (i) and (ii) of 17B