HSE spin and misinformation re: workplace smoking ban

BrianD3

It is plausible and very likely that many people have given up smoking since the introduction of (and as a result of) the workplace smoking ban in 2004. Unfortunately, our wonderful HSE felt the need to put out a press release containing a figure of 800,000 and give this legitimacy by using stats from the 2022 Census - with a UCD statistics professor now raising several issues with the methodology.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0427/1445919-hse-smoking/ .

https://about.hse.ie/news/20-years-since-ireland-banned-smoking-indoors-with-800000-fewer-smokers-today/

I love how they can put out a figure of 800,000 on the number of people who have stopped smoking but when it comes to the number of lives saved, it is described as "countless". Spin.

This is not something that will concern many people because, as above, a large reduction is plausible and there are other very pressing issues in our health service. The question arises though about the accuracy of any of the figures and stats that the HSE and DOH releases about anything - staffing, budgets, health outcomes, waiting lists, ED trolleys etc. Or anything related to Covid - as we know the public was bombarded with figures during the pandemic.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349103/hse-spin-and-misinformation-re-workplace-smoking-ban

Smoking is bad

Media coverage that people are no longer smoking etc is good

Not sure what the issue is here?

HSE has issues but having a pop at them for everything they do, which in this case I would see as good, is hardly going to help is it now?

accensi0n

Outrageous, there needs to be a public enquiry, and ideally a public hanging.

Hande hoche!

Surprised they were actually called out on this one. Quite a few bodies operate on a similar logic to Senator Armstrong. If there is any follow up it's long after attention has shifted.

Ave Sodalis

"I love how they can put out a figure of 800,000 on the number of
people who have stopped smoking but when it comes to the number of lives
saved, it is described as "countless". Spin."

I'm guessing this is because it's impossible to put a figure on those saved due to passive smoking.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069263#Comment_122069263

The word countless is used to indicate a HUGE number. It's hyperbole and is used for spin and propaganda.

it's not really about whether the number of lives saved was measurable or not. They could have said "it's likely that many deaths from passive smoking have been prevented but it is difficult to measure" but that wouldn't have had the desired effect.

This is just one of the tactics that they use. Note in the below statement how they don't actually say that the smoking ban caused 800,000 people to stop smoking - but they know that the audience will infer causality. Add to that the fact that the figure of 800,000 is dubious. Add to that the use of the word countless.

"It has been 20 years since the government introduced the Public Health (Tobacco) Act banning smoking in all workplaces, bars and restaurants. 800,000 people have stopped smoking in that time, saving countless lives in the process"

One eyed Jack

The question arises though about the accuracy of any of the figures and stats that the HSE and DOH releases about anything - staffing, budgets, health outcomes, waiting lists, ED trolleys etc.

That’s a hell of a leap! 😳

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069145#Comment_122069145

BrianD3 raises a valid point. The HSE are - in essence - trying to claim credit for 800,000 people stopping smoking and 'countless' lives being saved even though they have not a jot of evidence for this. They've made it up essentially. And if they're making up stuff re this, what else are they making stuff up about, or selectively using/abusing statistics for?

I've noticed similar myself recently in relation to unrelated topics - the authorities presenting data in a questionable fashion to make themselves look good, or making vague claims of positive outcomes, but the underlying statistics being completely opaque and there being no clarity as to exactly what outcomes they're specifically talking about and how they were measured, and whether there is actually a significant difference in what most people assume they are talking about. E.g. "we introduced policy A and now we've seen a reduction in [vague measurable]" without specifying exactly what was measured, what the difference was and whether it was statistically significant or not, and how this compares to their reasons for implementing Policy A in the first place.

On a similar note the amount of surveys (and similar) being widely reported and used as a basis for policy changes which are completely and utterly without any statistical integrity whatsoever is frightening. E.g. wall to wall coverage of "new survey shows that [sub population X] are hugely likely to be subjected to [poor behavior Y]" - yet if one can even manage to get access to the original material one will inevitably find that the survey responses were self selected and with no submission confirmation whatsoever (and so completely open to abuse by interested parties) - and the problems with the methodology usually keep going from there. Utterly worthless as useful data, yet that doesn't stop them hitting the headlines.

I blame the low standard of Irish 'journalists' these days TBH - totally uninterested in anything which may clash with their worldview and, frankly, without the brains to have any understanding whatsoever of statistics.

Eoinbmw

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122069490#Comment_122069490

BrianD3 raises a valid point. The HSE are - in essence - trying to claim credit for 800,000 people stopping smoking and 'countless' lives being saved even though they have not a jot of evidence for this. They've made it up essentially. And if they're making up stuff re this, what else are they making stuff up about, or selectively using/abusing statistics for?

He really doesn’t, any more than Patrick Murphy who queried the claims and came to the conclusion that they are incorrect, has much of a point.

The HSE aren’t trying to claim credit for 800,000 people stopping smoking and countless lives being saved. Instead they attribute that to the introduction of the legislation by Government. What they do claim credit for however, is this:

Fines for breaking the smoking ban are set at €3,000 and the HSE National Environmental Health Service continues to enforce these measures. A key aspect of their work today is in relation to the sale of tobacco to minors. The HSE undertakes compliance checks, also known as test purchases, in retail outlets to determine if retailers will sell tobacco products to minors. This has helped to contribute to a reduction of smoking rates among children, reducing from 19% in 2004 to 5% today.

Murphy doesn’t appear to have queried the statistic that the HSE actually claims credit for, but rather looks to have gotten his knickers in a twist over nothing.