Sepsis deaths in hospitals.

political analyst

From what I've read in the press recently about sepsis deaths in hospitals in this country, it's clear that lessons still haven't been learned.

Is it because the obsession about access to abortion after the death of Savita diverted attention away from the issue of sepsis?

volchitsa

No.

The ban on abortion unless the woman's life was identifiably in danger massively increased the risk of her dying from sepsis. That was important because sepsis can get out of control so readily.

It's still just as dangerous to pregnant women, but at least women suffering from miscarriages should (in theory) be able to have surgical intervention to speed up the miscarriage without waiting until sepsis has begun.

Tom Mann Centuria

No. It's because people haven't followed clear sepsis protocols brought in after that enquiry. Nothing to do with abortion.

volchitsa

(Why is this coming up as two posts? I just replied, it was two posts, so I deleted one, only to find that both were gone. Then I posted another, which again shows up as two.)

One eyed Jack

Is it because the obsession about access to abortion after the death of Savita diverted attention away from the issue of sepsis?

Nah, it’s just because there was never much attention on the issue in the first place. That’s why lessons haven’t been learned. HSE commissioned a report in 2016; in 2018 most people who were asked, still had no understanding of it:

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/clinical-strategy-and-programmes/national-sepsis-report-2016.pdf

Sepsis is a bigger killer than heart attack, lung cancer or breast cancer. There were almost 15,000 diagnosed cases of sepsis in Ireland in 2016 resulting in 3,000 deaths, and 60% of all deaths in hospital are related to a sepsis infection.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sepsis-awareness-killer-3828626-Feb2018/

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050268#Comment_122050268

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050286#Comment_122050286

The lessons on sepsis might have been learned if there hadn't been an obsession with abortion. After all, some people seemed to forget that women and girls who were never pregnant can die - and have died - of sepsis.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050305#Comment_122050305

What's your opinion on abortion? Just so cards are on the table here..

I'm sensing axe grinding here, maybe I'm wrong.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050305#Comment_122050305

That's the fault of the HSE and the ban on abortion though.

If Savita had been given a termination when she asked for one (which would have been considered "for comfort" reasons at that time, as she didn't then have sepsis, but was miscarrying and was therefore in a lot of pain) she would not have developed sepsis and therefore not have died of it.

The law didn't allow that because she had to wait until she developed signs of sepsis. It was high-wire tightrope acrobatics type medicine, ie not a sensible approach for any sensible health service.

But clearly the introduction of abortion couldn't possibly help people who get sepsis from some other source. And nobody has ever claimed it could. It was only ONE of the problems with sepsis. If the others have been ignored, that's not the fault of the law on abortion.

And there is no way to make sepsis "safe" so that no abortion would ever be required for a woman in Savita's position in the future. In fact the continued dangerosity of sepsis proves that. Sepsis is extremely dangerous, and forcing women to continue an inevitable miscarriage until they began to show signs of sepsis was a madness that no other western health service does.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050286#Comment_122050286

Yes, this.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050305#Comment_122050305

Sounds distinctly like you're using the thread to rant about abortion rather than because of genuine concern about sepsis.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050324#Comment_122050324

I voted No in the 2018 referendum. If lessons on sepsis were supposed to have been learned after Savita's death then why did a teenage girl still die of sepsis at University Hospital Limerick in December 2022?

Tails142

People get sepsis from cuts, surgeries, other bacterial infections and a hundred other different reasons and illnesses. I don't see what it has to do with abortion at all?

Risk of dieing from sepsis is raised by the overcrowding in hospitals which leads to a delay in diagnosis and treatment and a lack of regular observation meaning the protocols aren't adhered to.

Big Bag of Chips

Men get sepsis. Men die from sepsis.

I'm finding it difficult to understand what point you are making or why you are linking it particularly to abortion.

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050354#Comment_122050354

Because healthcare like all sectors contains the lazy, the incompetent, the stupid, etc. The fact that 'lessons were learned' doesn't mean there would never be another death from sepsis ever again.

The fact you're implying that only shows you're here with an agenda and not to engage in good faith.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050362#Comment_122050362

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050374#Comment_122050374

My point is that the obsession with abortion diverted from the issue of sepsis in general. People seemed to forget that males and non-pregnant females also die of sepsis.

JP Liz V1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050362#Comment_122050362

The faster sepsis is diagnosed and treated, the more a life can be saved

Witcher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050402#Comment_122050402

It didn't divert at all, ambulances now have warnings about sepsis on the exterior, the TIME acronym is frequently displayed in hospitals along with other signs about it.

The fact you're using a girls death to further your own agenda is a disgrace.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050402#Comment_122050402

Your point seems to be using sepsis as a way to demonise women who get abortions, honestly. People can pay attention to more than one thing at a time.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050402#Comment_122050402

My point is that the obsession with abortion diverted from the issue of sepsis in general.

It didn’t, because there was no attention on the issue of sepsis in the first place, for abortion to take anything away from it. It’s a rather silly idea to even suggest any sort of a relationship between the two very different issues.

And nobody forgets anything they aren’t even aware of or interested in, in the first place:

From the report I linked to earlier:

Nothing whatsoever to do with abortion. You might as well be proposing the idea that the attention on abortion diverted attention away from the issue of Mars releasing blue M&Ms 😒

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050399#Comment_122050399

The reason people die of sepsis in our Emergency Departments is less to do with laziness, incompetence and stupidity, and more to do with the completely dysfunction system our healthcare workers are expected to exist in. 70% of human errors are due to weaknesses in the organizations the in which the humans work.

Unfortunately, a scapegoat is usually sought and found among the healthcare staff on duty on the day (see Dr Bawa Garba) and so the actual problems are not sufficiently addressed.

And so excess sepsis deaths will continue to occur, despite the best efforts of the individuals at the coalface.

Brussels Sprout

OP, starting this thread seems like really convoluted way for you to have a gripe about women having a right to choose in this country.

Big Bag of Chips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050402#Comment_122050402

It didn't. They're completely separate issues. Dealt with by separate specialist consultants. Sepsis is an infectious disease. Researched and treated by specialists in that area. An abortion is an obstetric issue.

Why not say research into cardiovascular disease diverted from sepsis in the same way?

The health service is not "obsessed" with abortion. Not to the extent of neglecting other areas of medicine.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050402#Comment_122050402

Only in your head are the two issues actually connected.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050374#Comment_122050374

Two cases in our estate last two week

MrMusician18

Just listening to the story of the poor 15 year old girl that died from sepsis in Limerick. The way she and her family were treated was absolutely disgraceful - staff berating the girl for not being able to stand up, not being able to tell them what's wrong. Parents repeatedly begging for help and not getting any. Not seeing her for 10 hours when she should have been seen in 20 mins. A jam packed a&e where no one received adequate care and ended in tragedy.

There were so many failings that resulted in her death - systemic, management and staffing. It was a harrowing listen.

Isn't it the case that A&E services are abused?

I mean, I have personally been referred to the A&E to receive very simple wound cleaning from nurses. It wasn't an accident, nor was it an emergency; it definitely wasn't serious. I remember at the time a staff member saying why are GPs referring patients to address this kind of minor issue.

Furthermore, many people go to A&E when their case is neither an accident nor an emergency. It's a case of, "we're too impatient to wait until Monday, so we'll force ourselves into the A&E clinic".

It's similar to how many people waste GP time over basic issues, many of which resolve by themselves. Then you have the parachute grannies in GP surgeries, wasting time because it's almost like a tea and biscuits appointment where they just want to have a friendly chat with that GP.

I get the impression that the system isn't operating as efficiently as it should be, and resources seem to be wasted more so than they should.

Perhaps if this kind of thing were fixed, it might at least help with seeing / observing patients with the most serious of illnesses.

Curse These Metal Hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050594#Comment_122050594

Interesting to hear the father say that 12 nurses were standing around doing nothing. This has been my experience twice now in Irish hospitals, I witnessed someone in severe distress and the nurses just standing around having the chats.

MallowMan17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050447#Comment_122050447

I suffered from sepsis few years back, at the triage I said I don't feel well at all, I had tooth infection, my jaw was locked, and I was unwell. When I went to A&E window, the triage nurse asked me what it was, etc…. Got my vitals and I was on the bed with IV in my arm in 5 minutes, point being is, there were 50+ people with no life threatening conditions, but that triage nurse saved my life by putting me ON THE TROLLEY IN A&E WITHIN 5 MINUTES, AND I SPENT 48 HOURS THERE ON A TROLLEY BEFORE OPERATION, I lived, don't care about the trolley part…

Duvet Day

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050594#Comment_122050594

I was just reading about this case earlier, really unbelievable and tragic, the poor girl, I can only imagine what she suffered, it must have been a nightmare for her parents, it's absolutely inexcusable.

TheValeyard

Thread has merit.

Ignore the abortion segment

Sepsis is a sneaky cnut and if not caught early can have long term devastating effects or fatal. It's often confused for more benign illnesses and then caught too late.

Everyone needs to learn more about sepsis, not just medical staff.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050833#Comment_122050833

What I don't understand is how a type of bacteria can cause no harm to some people but cause sepsis in others.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050833#Comment_122050833

It doesn't. It reeks of the old misogyny of the repeal the eighth referendum. Blaming women who had abortions for sepsis is perverse. People should be aware of sepsis but that has nothing to do with abortion.

I honestly can't believe I had to write that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051027#Comment_122051027

There's plenty of info about sepsis online.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051131#Comment_122051131

The pro-choice people made the link between abortion and sepsis first. I didn't blame women who had abortions and there's nothing to indicate that I did.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051027#Comment_122051027

It depends on the nature of the infection.

If someone has a skin infection, for example, and is immunocompromised, it's possible for that infection to more easily spread, making it through to blood vessels — triggering a blood infection i.e. the start of sepsis.

Of course, this isn't always the case and sometimes healthy people are affected. But it's not unusual for bacteria to make their way to blood vessels. In fact, it's perfectly likely, and it happens all the time.

Biology and individual difference is complex, and bacteria exploit these differences — often very effectively, irrespective of whether the individual is healthy or not.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051255#Comment_122051255

You brought it up in the OP. It's perfectly clear what you're trying to do.

ProfessorPlum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051027#Comment_122051027

There's a myriad of bacteria that live harmlessly on our skin, in our digestive and upper respiratory tract. These same bacteria can cause life threatening diseases - from pneumonia to meningitis to necrotising fasciitis.

One third of people have MRSA - the 'super bug' living harmlessly in their nose.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051383#Comment_122051383

Its not like he as actually looking for an answer to that question

Meirleach

Might have been a handover if it was 12 of them.

I don't think we can blame the recent case in Limerick purely on the normal HSE shambles.

The staff treated the girl absolutely awful outside of not responding correctly. Also both the doctor involved and the lead nurse have conveniently left the jurisdiction.

tarvis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122050286#Comment_122050286

I was stuck in traffic lately and an ambulance drew up on my right. Printed on its side were the signs to watch out for if you suspect sepsis. I presume this message is for the general public - the advice - if you suspect sepsis get to A&E.

But how can we be sure that A&E will recognise the signs?
Or that anyone will listen to the those who suggest it is present and act accordingly and fast ?

ProfessorPlum

There were 66 other patients triaged to the same level as Aoife that day 'catagory 2' who waited over 10 hours to be seen by a doctor when the target is 15 minutes. The department was severely understaffed both in a nursing and medical capacity.

The clinical nurse manager deemed the department to be 'alarming unsafe' and escalated this opinion to management. Nothing happened.

It's all very well drawing up a sepsis protocol, but if you don't have enough staff and resources to actually see patients, nothing will change. The HSE and hospital management can hide behind the fact that they have a protocol, and the staff on the day will be hung out to dry. C'est la vie.

Scar001

Unfortunately, we'll be hearing about another case in a few months at the same hospital.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051642#Comment_122051642

Oh there's more to come out from there and it's not just sepsis, some terrible medical misadventures. It's our nearest hospital, people have a genuine and well founded fear of the place.

Sepsis is serious though, it's the 1st thing you should suspect, if you end up being wrong that's a good thing.

SuperBowserWorld

The HSE think their mission is to spend as much taxpayers money as possible. They get rewarded for incompetence. The more money they get, the more dangerous and incompetent they become.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051505#Comment_122051505

Indeed. While overcrowding was a factor, I don't think it was the sole factor.

BurnsCarpenter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051773#Comment_122051773

It's also shocking that the on-call consultant declined to come in when asked. I'm sure there will be no consequences either.

Reminds me of this sad case from the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/sep/03/13-year-old-daughter-dead-in-five-weeks-hospital-mistakes

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051255#Comment_122051255

People didn't vote to legalise abortion in a bid to eliminate sepsis. Maybe in your head that's the only way you can fathom so many people supporting it (you said you voted no) but you're wrong.

It's coming up to six years now and there was no doubt about the result. You don't have to have an abortion but an overwhelming majority of people voted to have the choice.

The Savita case brought abortion back into the limelight in the saddest way possible but it wasn't some Trojan horse used to trick people into supporting abortion. People felt strongly abot the topic for a long time before that.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051940#Comment_122051940

It’s not even the case that Savita Halappanavar’s death was the only tragedy that led to the referendum: the government’s first attempt to solve that was not repeal but the disastrous Protection of Life Act, which led to the Ms Y case, which had nothing to do with sepsis.

The reality is that there are so many things that can go wrong in a pregnancy, whether planned and wanted or not, and it is such a massive demand on the woman, that the only logical conclusion is that she has to give her consent to carry a pregnancy to term.

Sepsis is well worth discussing in its own right though, so I hope the OP doesn’t lose interest in it once it’s been separated from the issue of abortion.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058348312/sepsis-deaths-in-hospitals

my mother used to refer to us as children of getting Blood Poisoning. It was in relation to getting a cut from a dirty source. Eh a dirty/rusty nail, getting snagged from a dirty piece of iron. Etc . Would she have been referring to getting sepsis without she knowing it?

Red Silurian

Savita Halappanavar’s death was one of many problems we had that highlighted the problems with the 8th amendment

The recent uptick in sepsis deaths, Aoife Johnston being the most recent example, highlights the massive problems we have in hospitals, specifically UHL

There was political will to fix one and hopefully soon there will be the political will to fix the other

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122051993#Comment_122051993

Yes, Sepsis isn't a new thing just the term sepsis is used more frequently. Before the advent of antibiotics, ultimately sepsis would have been the most common cause of death by far. Usually either from an infected wound or where an infection such as tooth, UTI, Pneumonia etc spread to the bloodstream.

The problem I see in some hospitals is due to the lack of resources and inadequate systems for streaming healthcare in general, the number of people attending A&E results in "some" staff having a bias towards diagnosing the simple easy to deal with option rather than the complex time consuming option when faced with symptoms that could be explained by either. Their goal is to clear patients as quick as possible and so see the easier option more readily. Its human nature and takes training and systems to overcome

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052183#Comment_122052183

Of course, even in the best hospital environment, the mortality rate from sepsis is really quite high. It's difficult to diagnose and treat effectively.