Discipline in schools

Bobtheman

As far as I'm aware Principals are suspending less.

This is national policy now.

There has been no serious national debate since 2006.

In my own school we need to reform our system. We haven't found or looked for a way to incorporate vs ware.

All new management posts have nothing to do with discipline but you have teachers willing to work for free as tutors.

Even those not looking for promotion.

I'm wondering what people think? Teachers

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058347453/discipline-in-schools

I think, sadly the last thing the system wants to address is discipline. There are an ever diminishing set of actual consequences for continuous disruption because everyone has a right to education but only the people providing it have the responsibilities (and an ever increasing amount of them too).

And the game now is not to have a sustainable workplace but to participate enthusiastically in a race to the bottom.

Bobtheman

Well I expected more than one reply...

2011abc

People are past the point of caring .System is in freefall .Sure even in past 24 hours look at Stardust and Limerick septicemia cases .Incompetence is promoted anyone genuinely interested is attacked .Broad generalisation I admit but more true than not .God help us .

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122052367#Comment_122052367

whether true or not…. apparently in the sepsis case the main/senior doctor had 191 patients to deal with that night…without knowing and I could be wrong but I'd say its a case of too many chiefs and not enough indians in that case…in general I think the worker at the coalface is being overloaded with ever increasing workloads while a certain cohort of management and middle management justify their existence by coming up with said additional workload and new time suck initiatives that make the job incrementally more unattractive for those that actually have to do it

Maybe I'm going too far here but I reckon less and less people want to do jobs like nursing, teaching etc etc…and if they have any sense less and less will want to be a doctor either….unless its in another country

It seemed to me like the system wants to keep asking for more and more without addressing any of its responsibilities to provide a reasonable workplace…….if its not one extreme its another.

Bobtheman

I agree with the points above. We can't be emphasising student well being while ignoring Teacher well being.

I do believe teachers have a right to make complaints on a health safety basis not only involving their colleagues but also students. I have done so successfully and I would encourage others.

Ring your union if you have to.

I am trying to get it back on the national agenda

Kirby Puckett

How many times do students usually have to be suspended before getting expelled?

Without a legitimate fear of expulsion, I don't see how schools can get discipline issues under control.

am_zarathustra

Two different thresholds for suspension and expulsion, you could be suspended every week and it may never lead to a successful expulsion process. A lot of students are moreso "moved on".

jayo76

Discipline is gone, positively chalenging students to achieve their potential is gone, expecting students and in a lot of cases parents to take any responsibility for their behaviour or academic progression is gone.

Sorry for the doom and gloom but this is my genuine experience. Students who ruin whole class groups with their behaviour are excused on the grounds of their neurodiversity and the wellbeing teams in schools indulge them in their blaming of teachers that dont understand their needs.

WWMRD

Discipline issues in my school are not being dealt with quick enough. We are now a Restorative School and believe this was the start of it. No fear of anyone or anything. Swearing at teachers, name calling, bullying their peers, online image sharing, mobile phone use during class, no bags in school...the list is endless. Classroom management is actually impossible. I have walked students to DP office during classes to be able to try teach. Im a practical teacher and health and safety is terrifying me at the moment that I am reluctant to do practicals. Team teaching is now common in our school but more like having a bouncer in the room. Taking the nicey nicey approach to issues is not working but management dont want to know it in fact they are too busy typing away on their computers in their offices.

I dont know where this is going.....I am in a good area and an actual good school believe it or not.…but I am getting more and more scared of something major happening in my school.

Ugh ranting now 🙄

pandoraj09

I'm leaving/taking early retirement at the end of this academic year. I agree with everything said above. I've been a year head for 35 years and it seems to be all about pandering to students now. Any attempt to get them to knuckle down and work/study has them running into the Principal's office playing the wellbeing card. One thing I really detest is the fact that parents and students can email us any time they want. If they don't attend class we're expected to post the class material on Google classroom for them. We're not allowed raise our voice at all. Sick of the whole thing and got a pleasant surprise when I got my statement of service from the DES as they let me buy back loads of part time service from back in the late 80s/early 90s which meant I could have gone last year. The bad language on the corridors and the general lack of respect has worn me down.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077677#Comment_122077677

I don't think teachers should post anything on goggle classroom if they don't want to.

You are obligated to teach and perhaps Mark work but nowhere does it say you have to post online or reply to parental emails.

I kick those to the year head in question.

Students should be told ask other students.

We can be our own worst enemies and inclined to bend the knee too quickly to principals

We can play the wellbeing card back at them and make health and safety complaints too.

Bobtheman

I personally plan to pursue the issue.

Ik of you have looked at this

I'd suggest you all email your union and ask them what they are doing on this.

I doubt many of you will. Teachers are a pretty spineless bunch who despair way too quickly.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077677#Comment_122077677

If I were you Id hang around just to be a thorn in the side and say no to nonsense.

"Can you post the notes online please?"

"No".

What are they going to do, fire you?

Bobtheman

https://medium.com/%40williamlynch1970/irish-school-discipline-in-freefall-9737f5527251

See above

Bobtheman

It seems by the lack of response that Irish teachers think this issue is fine. Bullshit.

What a spineless bunch you are

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122324143#Comment_122324143

I don't think you can infer what Irish teachers are by the lack of response here. Boards is pretty quiet these days.

Bobtheman

That's fair enough. Holiday time

noplacehere

I think we're all exhausted tbh. Discipline is a disaster. Yes there is more diagnosis and more issues than ever. Yes there are hangovers from covid. But teaching is a battle nowadays even in good schools. Parents and students are more demanding of more and more from staff and have absolutely no boundaries. Class sizes are still too large. SNA's are reduced to physical needs assistants so there is no classroom support in the way other countries have classroom assistants. School buildings are disasters. Grants are given without adequate people to implement them, or are given with no ongoing maintenance or supports (ICT grants etc). Teaching is exhausting. I'm job sharing now and with my own kids its the only way I'm managing to keep my head above water

Kirby Puckett

Many of today's teenagers have an attention span of ten seconds, zero respect for authority and zero fear of punishment. What's the worst that could happen? Oh yeah, I'll get suspended and have two lovely days staying in bed watching TikTok. Why behave when the alternative is such an appealing prospect? I might as well just trot into class late chewing gum, address the teacher by her first name, make animal noises during class and get angry with the teacher when she asks me where my homework is. Oh, and if any of my classmates feel they're not learning…guess what? It's the teacher's fault!

Bobtheman

Thank you for the comments. I'm not going to pretend there is a magic bullet but I am trying to get it back on the agenda or the Asti. Particularly the health and safety angle.

One thing I would ask everyone on the thread to do is to find out who your national executive member is in your union. Then email them and ask what they are doing on this issue.

In the asti we call them standing commitee. You might have to email headquarters and ask for this info.

Start the ball rolling or you could just watch more TV and moan in the staffroom.

Joe286

I tend to agree with you.

It's ****. Teachers are by and large a spineless lot

grenouille1966

I agree.. Discipline in Irish schools has gone to hell.

grenouille1966

Discipline in most Irish schools has taken a nose dive over the past number of years. Figures of authority such as teachers and year heads have in fact very little authority. YH's are no longer allowed to suspend a student on the spot for poor behaviour but have to beg the hierarchy to suspend students instead. It is all about the student and his/her wellbeing. They can berate and curse a teacher into the ground and still face little or no sanctions. Teachers just have to suck it up. I see instances in my school where the Year Head is ridiculed during assembly and totally demeaned by a certain cohort. When certain students are challenged about their beahiours they simply go running to the Deputy Principals to air their grievances and try and get a detention removed. More often than not the VP's side with the recalcitrant students and openly ask that the Teachers explain exactly what happened i.e to justify their actions.

Teaching has lost all status and respect. Some students openly disrespect and deride teachers owing to their moderate to poor salaries. They seem to base their current levels of on earning power. Ah, you are only a teacher so I don't respect you. You don't earn enough.

Men have more or less deserted the classroom. Most schools are female dominated now and this will be the trend until we have practically no men left in teaching. It also weakens the hands of Unions. The Gov knows that women in general are far more compliant than men and seek to avoid conflict whenever they can. Much more so than men. They are very hesitant to engage in strike action even if it meant getting better working conditions and remuneration.

Management bow the knee to parents/Guardians on too many occasions.

There are so many more fulfilling and well paid careers out there now that one would, in my opinion anyway, be mad to become a teacher nowadays. I have only a year or two left before I exit the arena and I will be glad close that chapter of my life.

Steve27

While it’s sad and disappointing to read the above posts, it’s also reassuring to know that this problem is a national one.
I work in a Boarding school, which was once a place for students to grow and learn the ways of the world outside of the classroom, it’s now a way for parents to outsource their parenting, and complain if you’re doing it wrong!

Wanderer78

people misbehave for various different reasons, commonly being unmet needs, our educational system is simply not flexible enough to change, as society changes, peoples needs change, but when you have a system thats significantly inflexible to change, peoples needs become less and less met, resulting in disruptive behaviors

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122330111#Comment_122330111

The attention span of ten seconds may well be directly related to use of apps which are designed to addict the user into getting a dopamine hit every ten seconds or so.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123434273#Comment_123434273

There could be some truth in that....there could also be some truth in the statement that the education system is vastly under resorced to meet the vastly increased array of needs that society now seems to have (as compared to relatively recently)....

It could also be an idea, that perhaps the education system may not be able to and perhaps shouldn't be asked to meet some of the more unreasonable or very specialised needs without vastly increased funding and resourcing

It may also be an idea that some of the needs (the unreasonable in any workplace kind) should be met elsewhere or not at all.....ie: if you have the need to be continuously disruptive just becuaee there seem to be little or no meaningful consequences..maybe your need could be met elsewhere until you don't have that need anymore etc