Solicitor preventing our house sale

kraken208

Hi all,

As luck would have it our purchasers ended up with the same solicitor as our 'neighbour' and has advised them there is a dispute over boundary.

Ill try be as short and to the point as possible as there is a bit to this, ill just set out a few points i think are relevant first

We have the boundary registered on land registry in our names (clean title)

neighbours house is not registered in land registry, was bought around 2016 so it should have been

he does not live there but rents it for cash

the boundary in question is an alleyway between our house and neighbours.

its been in use at least 25 years plus that we know of by our house as sole access to the rear. neighbours has their own rear access

both houses are 100 years plus old

buyers solicitor has used their correspondence as a proxy to question title and prevent sale in buyers name while never mentioning neighbour by name

on going for 5-6 month now

buyers solicitor has recently called our estate agent to look for 10k reduction that would be used to buy off neighbour. the house deal was done 5/6 months ago and it was specifically stated no further reductions as we gave them a good reduction at the time.

buyers solicitor mention putting a burden on our title when speaking to our estate agent.

we flat out refused to be extorted for land we already own and said no to a reduction.

our solicitors received a further correspondence recently stating a caution was going to be applied for. again this letter was bizarrely in the buyers names. (why would buyers want to prevent their own sale?)

anyway our solicitors have reverted for clarification in who he is representing as it seems like a conflict of interest.

now for some possibly irrelevant info but this 'neighbor' is a known conman.

we have had no trouble with them until now when i guess he has seen an opportunity for quick cash.

i've since been made aware of multiple times he has done the same or similar stunts and low and behold is using the same solicitor.

he is a published tax defaulter to the tune of millions so id assume these properties may not be in his name or possibly why they are not registered…

We feel for the buyers who are not benefitting from this money but they won't change solicitor as is their right but the deal can not proceed with their solicitor acting this way.

My question is, is this just unethical or should this solicitor be reported? I'd imagine he could say he was protecting the buyers from litigation (from his own client) but he truly never acted in their best interest imo.

he put every road block and questioned very unusual and irrelevant things from the outset. are the law society any good for investigating this behaviour or would i be wasting my time?

thanks

Lenar3556

Firstly, in fairness to the buyers solicitor - a purchaser needs to be very careful in entering into a contract to buy a property where there is a dispute over the boundary. Likewise a lender (if one is involved) will have serious reservations in deciding to lend in such circumstances. The purchaser’s solicitor has a responsibility to both the buyer and the lender and they would be leaving themselves very exposed if they simply ignored this claim by the neighbour.

The veracity of the neighbours claim is of course a separate matter, but it’s an issue which may cause you considerable difficulty in selling the property as things stand. In most cases you will need to deal with it in advance of any sale, either through negotiation with the neighbour, or by seeking a determination by the courts.

Is there a conflict of interest on the part of the buyers solicitor in the seeking of a 10k reduction to appease his other client? Possibly a little. But he will say he legitimately represents both parties and he is quite entitled to do so. In any case I don’t think you will progress the matter greatly from that angle. The remedy to a potential conflict of interest will be that the buyer gets another solicitor, who will likely provide them with similar advice - that they cannot, or should not proceed with the purchase of a property where there is a dispute.

mickdw

Has the neighbours property use of the alleyway in question?

If no genuine reason for their claim, I'd back out of the saleand not be dealing with bullsh1t.

3DataModem

"buyers solicitor has recently called our estate agent to look for 10k reduction"

• I'd tell my estate agent to advise the purchaser that this action is deemed to be the buyer withdrawing the offer, and hence the property is being put back on the market.

Jim2007

The buyer's solicitor is doing exactly what is expected of him - acting in the best interests of his client and he would be foolish to do anything else. So reporting a solicitor for doing what is expected of him is not going to go anywhere.

Your problem is your neighbour and you are going to have to sort that out before you can expect to have a successful sale. If as you say you have clean title then you need to seek legal advice about how to deal with him since he is spreading falsehoods about you and costing you a sale.

But don't start playing silly bugger games because they almost always end with silly prizes.

AlanG

Easiest thing to do is give a closing date and if the buyer doesn't close then get a different buyer who will likely have a different solicitor. Your neighbour should have no legal way of knowing who the buyers are or who is acting for the buyers.

As for the solicitor you could raise a complaint with the law society which may soften his cough. Just because he acts on behalf of both parties it would not give him the right to tell the neighbour that he is acting for the buyer or give the the buyer unverified information from the neighbours. If he told the neighbour that he is acting for the buyer and gave any information then that would be questionable.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991727#Comment_121991727

The issue is the neighbour is likely to register a caution on the folio, so it will appear as a matter or course when any new purchaser goes to buy, regardless of what solicitor they use.

The claim by the neighbour needs to be concluded one way or another. Otherwise you are just kicking the can down the road.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991814#Comment_121991814

Can you explain what a caution on the folio is?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991836#Comment_121991836

It’s a legal mechanism whereby the neighbour would petition the property registration authority to record a ‘caution’ or note on the OP’s registered title. If the PRA agreed, (and the bar isn’t very high) this would have the effect of formally highlighting the claim to any future purchaser and also generating a statutory requirement for the neighbour to be put on notice of any dealings in the land.

Effectively it makes the property very difficult to sell. If registered, the OP could make an application to the PRA have it removed, but more likely would need to seek an order of the courts to remove it.

The registering of cautions is open to abuse and is often done a as means to frustrate sales by banks in repossession cases for example.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991628#Comment_121991628

I would disagree with you there. The buyer’s solicitor should make searches and inquiries. If he is aware, under a burden of confidentiality, of a potential claim against the land for another client he should have declined to take instructions from the buyer. He has a conflict of interest which makes it impossible for him to effect his duty of care to his two clients.

troyzer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992834#Comment_121992834

Never heard of this before, that is absolutely wild.

I'm amazed there aren't loads of cases of people chancing their arm for a few quid pay-off like we're seeing with planning objections.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991514#Comment_121991514

Thank you, Sorry I'm only getting back to these now as I was away.

I understand the buyers solicitors obligations or any solicitors acting for a buyer but surely once the evidence has been put forward to said solicitor on multiple occasions that there is no legitimate claim that should be that.

Our own solicitors said if they were acting for the buyer they would notify the lender but that there should be no issue in proceeding with the purchase.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991539#Comment_121991539

No, No use of the alleyway and never has or needed too. nor had any previous owners going back 30 years plus.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991588#Comment_121991588

Yes we will have to do this I think. I think they are being ill advised and used by their solicitor IMO. It's unfair on them as first time buyers but we will have to move on I fear.

cnocbui

Inform Revenue of the neighbours renting for cash, cancel the sale and put it back on the market.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991628#Comment_121991628

Well he is certainly acting in one of his clients best interest but I can't see how it can be both when they have conflicting goals

1 wants to make a purchase and the other wants to prevent the sale.

Yes the problem is the owner of the neighboring house but how do you sort someone who is solely out to extort money.

I assure you there is no rightful claim to this but him and his solicitor are using the failings in old maps and land laws to try and muddy the waters enough to get a pay off

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991727#Comment_121991727

Thanks, yes we have done so and it looks like we will have to just go that way.

SouthWesterly

Tell the neighbour he'll be reported to revenue and RTB for cash in hand rentals if he doesn't stop this nonsense. Should soften his cough

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991814#Comment_121991814

Does this have to be registered in the owners name and wouldn't the said property have to be registered in Land registry as is a statutory obligation for houses bought post 2013?

I've read a bit on these and it is crazy how easy they can be used and abused.

kraken208

Very tempted to report him to Revenue and RTB but I suspect the house is not in his name.

as far as I am aware he has his own deeds which appear to never have been registered in the deeds house or with land registry and the buyers solicitor has only every used their communications to mention "the adjoining neighbor".

never by name or never a letter sent representing him directly.

He even mention registering a caution against us in the buyer's latest reply!

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012277#Comment_122012277

It would be registered on your folio. The ‘cautioner’ would presumably be the person who claims to be the owner of the adjoining land.

Incidentally, the point at which it became a mandatory requirement to register title with land registry varied by local authority.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122012586#Comment_122012586

Thank you, what i meant was wouldn't the caution have to be applied for in the adjoining owners name and would his property have to be 'legal' in terms of being registered with PRA (the house was purchased a long time after all deadlines for all counties had passed) or even Deeds house and property tax paid up etc.. or would that even come in to it?

My own solicitor said if it was a remotely genuine claim the caution would of been applied for already.

It really does seem like an archaic system open to abuse by unscrupulous opportunists. I wonder are the PRA fully aware or making any proposed changes to prevent or deter unwarranted claims.

ittakestwo

I think you're caught here. You will have to declare the dispute to any potential buyer. I presume the neighbour is either claiming ownership of the alleyway or a right of way over it? If you dont declare the dispute on the "replies to requisitions" then you could be sued by a new purchaser should they suffer a future loss.

So only way is getting a court order declaring neighbour has no legal right to your property title. This could take years. You could declare this dispute when selling but then you may be limited to only selling to cash buyers.

Is there anyway you can sell your house and leave out the alleyway. Ie just sell the undisputed part of your folio.

kraken208

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060122#Comment_122060122

Thanks for your reply.

They are trying to claim ownership, not right of way.

You are correct regarding declaring the dispute but I'm told that does not rule out any buyers as it is just something that gets mentioned to the lending agency and is apparently common enough and not enough to prevent a mortgage being awarded?

I mean any begrudging neighbour could cause a dispute once they see a neighbouring house go for sale. This shouldn't mean you can't sell what is yours I don't think, but I take your point and you are right that a court order would be a way rid of him 100% but this alleyway is registered to us in land registry with clean title as of now…

Selling without the alleyway has been something i thought about but what would I do with it once the house sold?

would we be liable for it and what would we tell the new buyers.. it seems it could be a messy way to go but its still an option

ittakestwo

Do you know how they're trying to claim ownership? Are they claiming the alleyway is on their title deeds or claiming it by adverse possession?

Land registry have a disclaimer that boundaries shown on their maps are for identification purposes and not proof of ownership.

If the alleyway is shown on your original property deeds which would have been used to register your property and the alleyway is also on your neighbours original deeds. Then the older of the two would be the owner. Originally there would have been a common owner of the land the properties are on. This owner split the land by selling one piece on and retaining the other. Which ever piece they sold first showing alleyway would be the owner as the original common owner couldn't have sold it on again after. If the original common owner sold both properties simultaneously to different people both showing the alleyway on title deeds then the situation is very complicated.

I think people claiming rights need to have some factual evidence to back up thier claim or else you could bring an injunction for tresspass? But before you would do this engage with them to see what they have to back up their claim.

cnocbui

Here's a legal question: If the neighbour puts a lien/caution on the folio that then torpedoes a sale, could the OP then seek damages from the neighbour for vexatious and unjustified interference if their 'claims' proved to be false?

fitzparker

General question
"buyers solicitor has recently called our estate agent to look for 10k reduction that would be used to buy off neighbour. "

is this an assumption or is this what the solicitor said.

Is their solictior saying, the neighbour wants 10k, and the buyer would give it? why would the buyer give it? wouldn't the seller do this then have it in writing for any future purchasers off the house?

Or are you assuming the 10k is going to the neighbour…. . how would this work, the buyer isnt just going to hand over 10k randomly

either way shouldn't it all be done before a sale is complete and nothing to do with the new buyer.

(I am in no way legal so may be way off here)

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077771#Comment_122077771

I think it was a case of the purchasers solicitor, given his knowledge of the matter, believing that 10k would settle any claim that the neighbour might have - it was proposed that this 10k would ultimately be funded by the seller.

The solicitor would likely handle the mechanics of transferring the 10k to the neighbour out of the proceeds of the sale, that element would be common enough.

Claw Hammer

If it is true that a solicitor sought a reduction in those circumstances, he should be reported to the Law Society. He is utterly conflicted with two clients who are at the opposite end of a dispute.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122077712#Comment_122077712

Id be interested to know same! I said its maddening if the claims are false...you could see how disputes like that could escalate.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078025#Comment_122078025

There is another thread at the moment about a deceased estate dispute that has dragged 7 years and where the executor is a legal clerk in a law firm.

In some other countries, one might suspect the executor of having a conflict of interest. That thread has had quite a few posts, with a few mine, and not once has anyone commented on this. Talk of barrristers being needed, I'm shocked. /s