Plans to end direct rail services between Wexford and Dublin

Glaceon

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/04/02/nta-considering-proposals-to-end-direct-rail-services-between-wexford-and-dublin/

Sounds to me like this could kill the line off altogether. I can't see people being willing to do the change to a DART, it would surely increase journey times too.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058344692/plans-to-end-direct-rail-services-between-wexford-and-dublin

It actually takes the same time on Intercity and Dart from connolly to Greystones. There will be hugh backash to this but if as they suggest that they could provide an hourly train service from wexford to greystones and guarantee that Darts will be waiting the public could be sold on it with increase service as the current service is shocking.

bk

Mr Gleeson compared the move to “asking passengers on the Belfast line
change at Malahide or those on the Cork line change at Hazlehatch,
before they enter the Dublin area”.

LOL, Mark, you'd make a great politician, carefully avoiding mentioning Limerick I see!

People coming from Limerick, our third biggest city have to change to the Cork train at Limerick Junction every time and it works fine.

The numbers boarding south of Wicklow are tiny, these changes will lead to a better DART service, better, more frequent service for Greystones and Wicklow and also more frequent and better service for Wexford too.

We are going to see more interchange between services as the network grows and expands. Howth is becoming a shuttle service under Dart+, we will likely see intercity trains stop at one of the DART+ stations so people can transfer onto DART+ and then onto Metrolink for the airport in the future.

Such interchange is common on expanding rail networks all over Europe.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058344692/plans-to-end-direct-rail-services-between-wexford-and-dublin

It take about 3 hours for the full route, but only two hours if the service was terminated in Greystones. Cutting out the Greystones-Connolly round trip saves two hours of driving.

So given the current 4 services per day, this could/would allow an extra two trips per day with the current fleet and driver pool.

And maybe repopen one or two stations on the line and make a nice and handy cross platform transfer

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968789#Comment_121968789

There are 'some' direct services from Dublin<>Colbert at peak times, so it's not a change "every time".

But notwithstanding that, and accepting that the majority of services do require a change at LJ, I still think Mark Gleason's comparison is perfectly fine. Changing at LJ is now an accepted part of the system, has been for many years (decades?). It's no longer an issue (perhaps it was when it was first introduced?)

But asking Wexford commuters to swap at Wicklow would be a change/downgrade to their current service and seems reasonable to me to compare it with Belfast<>Dublin travellers being made to change at Malahide.

Whether it's a good idea or not for overall network efficiency is a different issue obviously - it probably is good. But it's clearly a negative for the Wexford train users and needs to be 'sold' to them by something better than "it's what happens for Limerick".

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968924#Comment_121968924

I'm sorry, but it was a totally laughable comment!

A total of 154 people boarded the train the entire day at Wexford during the rail census. The numbers using this service are tiny. It is in no way comparable to Belfast or Cork.

Howth had 1,250 people boarding the same day, but where is all the complaints about that being turned into a shuttle service?

This is good news for everyone, a better service for everyone.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968994#Comment_121968994

Just because there were only 154 passengers doesn't make the inconvenience for those 154 any less. What you are saying is because there is only a small amount of people that therefore inconveniencing them doesn't matter, which to an extent I agree with. But MGs fundamental point that it is the equivalent of Mrs Dundalk being asked to change at Malahide seems correct to me. There is just more Dundalk commuters than Wexford so we are less concerned.

By the way the Howth shuttle service does have complaints - "we are being sacrificed for Drogheda". https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/05/16/howth-and-sutton-dart-users-face-major-changes-to-commute-with-potential-shuttle-trains-splitting-journey/

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969045#Comment_121969045

But again, he very carefully left out Limerick. It was a pretty silly comment IMO and I'm disappointed in seeing him making it, rather then pointing out that overall this will lead to a significantly better service.

A person with years of experience in public transport should know that interconnection is a normal part of any well developed system and often leads to a much better service.

I was genuinely shocked and disappointed to see him make this comment, which is the sort of stuff I expect to see from the normal misinformed rabble.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968789#Comment_121968789

Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense.

Limerick is no way an equivalent. There are currently 3 direct Limerick - Dublin return Mon-Sat and 6 on Sundays.

The hourly connections at Limerick Jct are to fast Intercity trains, not dumping long distance passengers at the edge of a suburban area on to stopping metro trains.

It certainly isn't common on any decent European railway to stop regional express trains over an hour short of a major city for connection onto all stop suburban/metro/s-bahn trains.

I wait to hear your examples of all the similar places this happens.

The 2 morning and 3 evening peak Rosslare line trains are a long standing integral part of the service, removing them would leave a significant capacity gap which would have to be filled with additional Dart services anyway.

The 2 late trains probably need to return to Dublin for fuel/servicing/set swap anyway, that just leaves the post peak morning and afternoon trains.

If the proposal was that additional trains would only run to Greystones/Bray or a re-cast with a similar number of through trains and additional shorts to increase frequency south of Greystones I think that would be a reasonable compromise but cutting the through service altogether is just intentionally killing the route.

Howth is in no way similar, it is cutting a short branch in exchange for a doubling of frequency, even so there have been complaints and no doubt as the proposal becomes more of a reality I expect there to be lots of pushback.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968372#Comment_121968372

an increased frequency could be delivered today direct to dublin, only thing stopping that is drivers and rolling stock.

sure, you might be able to sell this plan to a gullible few but there are enough who won't be sold on a service as **** as the ballybroaphy line ultimately.

this is just a shifting of the deck chairs from a lowish frequency but mostly useful service to more likely still the same frequency but waste of space service, even if they did increase the frequencies that wouldn't change.

this is just an NTA obsession for an already discredited idea with irish rail just doing as they are told as they have always had contempt for this line more then others.

forget it, it will be stopped if there is any chance of it actually happening.

to mention also for your interest there is a thread on this forum discussing this very thing all be it's from before it became an NTA hobby horse, it's a good bit back in the forum at this stage now i would imagine as it's an old thread, but might be worth a read as it discusses everything.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968789#Comment_121968789

well mark is ultimately correct.
limerick passengers change on to the main line services from cork, and near the start of their journey, as does tralee, so hardly a valid comparison.
whatever about tralee, the only reason limerick passengers are changing is rolling stock saving issues, nothing more, limerick could very much support at least a 2 hourly, probably hourly in reality, direct service.
just because people use the services from limerick, does not mean the change works fine, as none of us know how much passenger demand is being suppressed.
the numbers boarding south of wicklow are not tiny, they haven't been since the end of the recession, you should actually go and use the services and you will see what i see which is trains full to capacity all across the day.
there will be no increase in frequency for darts regardless of what anyone says, 10 minute is likely the frequency as is for the forseeable.
even if there is a frequency increase south of wicklow, a change on to a dart invalidates it.
ultimately, there is no redeaming features for what will be if the plans go ahead, one of the worst services in the country's history.
but of course we have been round this roundabout a few times before haven't we.

end of the road

.
you are incorrect, it saves no driving as the diesels will still be running all be it empty to connolly as servicing is done there with big maintenence done at portlaoise and droghida, that is not going to change and there will not be a depot or servicing facilities built.
a nice and handy cross platform change is unviable due to operational and other issues that mean such a thing cannot be guaranteed for the 2 users that would be the only ones using this service as proposed, yourself and bk.
the only station that has a slim chance of reopening on the line is avoka and that has a very slim chance.
ultimately, this discredited idea has nothing going for it but a discontinuation of rail services to wexford which is a guaranteed certainty.
funnily enough i've been on this roundabout a few times with you also.

SeanW

>_< This stupid idea needs to die. Permanently. It's not bad enough that IE is sending those godawful rattling cattle car 29000 trains long distance to places like Sligo and Rosslare, nor that the trip from Dublin to Rosslare takes like 3 hours or something, but to have it no longer even being direct and forcing the few passengers that remain to switch to another mode in the commuter belt is beyond absurd.

It would be like if Bus Eireann decided to terminate their services at the outskirts of Dublin and tell everyone to switch to local Dublin Bus services, this would be a particular PITA for people carrying luggage for whatever reason. It's beyond silly.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968994#Comment_121968994

yes the day of the rail census.
ultimately 1 day so is meaningless, certainly not justification for starting the process of killing off services to wexford when trains are full all of the time, even if they wereen't it wouldn't be justification.
this is bad news for everyone, a worse service for everyone, a service so laughable it has nothing going for it.
full wexford trains transferring on to already full, or will be full very soon dart trains which are currently mostly half capacity, and even at full capacity would still take them from currently beyond overcrowded to ridiculous levels.
embarrassing stuff but not surprising from the NTA.

Kiteview

What Irish Rail should be doing is continually running direct services between Belfast and Rosslare Europort with Dublin “just another stop” on that route. It is ridiculous that if you want to go from Wicklow to Belfast, you take one train to Dublin and then have to change to another train to Belfast.

This proposal would make such a journey even more arduous than it already is - and there’s no need for it because the money that is being squandered on the Airport-Dundrum Metro vanity project could pay for a tunnel or tunnels for the DART instead, leaving the existing rail free for Irish Rail to run mainline services.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969923#Comment_121969923

it's an interesting idea but the problem is that the belfast trains are operated by both northern ireland railways and irish rail with it's own bespoke rolling stock.
while some 22000s and 2900s can run to belfast the problem is that a rosslare to belfast would take the set away for quite a while longer then intended and it would mean dedicating the sets able to run on the northern ireland railways section of the belfast service to the rosslare line and there aren't enough of those sets to do it.

Charles Babbage

This does not seem a progressive proposal. As previous posters have said, Limerick is connected by a fast train, not one with 20 odd stops. Howth is short suburban connection.

While it is an urban area there are several places where passing loops could be added and this should be done to allow trains actually run to Dublin.

Bodan

Barry Kenny was on newstalk today where he went into a bit more detail. In the interview he said it would be a mix of direct and interchange trains to increase capacity on the line…

“We’ve six trains each way a day to either Gorey or Wexford or Rosslare. “We want to expand all of the trains;
in modelling the infrastructure, one of the ways you can do that and get much better frequency is by having an interchange between the Rosslare service and the DART at somewhere like Greystones.” 

Mr Kenny said no decision has been made and in the future some trains could terminate in Wicklow, while
other continue to travel onto Dublin. “It’ll be able to have direct services, it’ll be able to have a mixture of direct and interchange,” he said. “The infrastructure modelling says to absolutely squeeze every last bit of capacity out, you would have an interchange. “But that decision is absolutely not made. 

Mr Kenny said Irish Rail’s priority is to “run more trains for everybody” and a consultation on the issue will begin this summer. 

https://www.newstalk.com/lunchtime-live/decision-on-ending-direct-wexford-dublin-trains-has-absolutely-not-been-made-1712311

ArcadiaJunction

All things considered, the reaction to this has been somewhat hyterical. No, it won't kill off the service and might even grow more numbers considering the greater frequency.

These kinds of outer suburban changes to rapid transit are not uncommon. Isn't this happening with HS2?

Jamie2k9

I woudl support once they implement the Howth shuttle and close the Merrion Gates.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969071#Comment_121969071

Slower service. Limerick offers a quicker service with connections.

They might get it over the line if there was a 2 hourly service from Wexford but that won't be under consideration.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981510#Comment_121981510

the reaction has been justifiable.
there is absolutely no chance this shitshow will grow passengers if implemented.
there is absolutely nothing here that would encourage growth or the current passengers to stay.
there is absolutely no comparison what soever to anything else either here, the uk or europe.

it will absolutely kill off the service, there is no doubt about that.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982074#Comment_121982074

nothing will get this over the line trust me on that.

enough people will see this as poorer then what they have even in the unlikely event there was a greater frequency.

put that with all the other issues down here and people see this for what it is.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982339#Comment_121982339

If it enables the DART to run more frequently and increases passenger capacity overall, there is some sense in it.

But we would need to see the DART frequency increase.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982363#Comment_121982363

removing the rosslare services won't make any difference to the dart being able to run more frequently.
the dart can't run more frequently at the moment due to lack of rolling stock hence lots of half size trains running around, and when the new stock arrives signalling will prevent it for a bit until the new signalling is commissioned whenever that is.
the rosslare diesels will still run empty to connolly anyway as they are serviced there with big maintenence carried out at portlaoise and droghida depots and that regime is not going to change, nor are there going to be any sort of servicing and depot facilities built on the rosslare line as it would make no sense.
so this idea makes no sense, it's just a non-baked idea by the NTA who are clueless to reality hence the 10 minute dart with half capacity trains rather then waiting until the new stock arrived and launching it then.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983983#Comment_121983983

HOw can you say that removing the Rosslare trains from the DART paths "won'tmake any difference" - as the Rosslare train runs through, additional space needs to be left.

Will every running of the Rosslare train require a trip to Connolly etc for maintenance? That's not what happens now. INstead of running onto Connolly, they willgo back down the line providing additional capacity but more improtantly frequency.

Why is running half-sized trains at a greater frequency non-sensical? Other than at rush times, capacity is not an issue, frequency is.

NIce to see some fo the Gorey commuters supporting the proposal in the IT today - unsurprisingly, the negative comments there came from the infrequent users.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969378#Comment_121969378

The "direct" train to Limerick is actually the less direct option.

It exists to serve places like Nenagh but anyone going from Limerick to Dublin is much better off changing at the junction.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984086#Comment_121984086

The direct service doesn’t go via Nenagh, it branches off the Cork line on a tight curve just before Limerick Junction.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984056#Comment_121984056

whatever way it runs, there will be the same or a lot more ECS moves to connolly as a trains is not going to stay running up and down the line as sets are swapped out as they require servicing or trips to portlaoise or droghida or a particular car set is required elsewhere ETC.
because half sized trains at a greater frequency mean less capacity available at a particular time meaning where once passengers could get a seat or stand comfortably, they now can't and are standing uncomfortably because what was once a full capacity train able to take the required capacity of the service, is now a half sized train that can't.
that does effect rush hour because a lot of rush hour darts are not 8 car from what i both hear and from what i have witnessed myself.
sure, some gorey commuters who don't really know what exactly they are getting and just see the headline of more frequent trains will support this nonsense, not their fault but the campaign groups down here will get the message out as to the actual reality and why this should not be supported ultimately.
infrequent users are infrequent for a reason, and understandably when they do use the service they want something that meets their needs which this plan doesn't.
meaning infrequent users go to not at all users meaning less users, along with the frequent users who will also drop out.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983983#Comment_121983983

Is the DART running at 10 minute intervals now?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984349#Comment_121984349

yes, from bray to houth junction.