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Naval Service General Discussion - Fleet, Manpower, Policy

  • 30-03-2024 11:58am
    Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Opening a new thread for all things NS and future Navy.

  • Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭Yawlboy

    Whats the story with the Lake class boats, when are they supposed to be commissioned? Any news on names?

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Still unknown. No point making them fully operational without crews for them.

    Not a whisper about names.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    Wrong and Wrong.

    There is a considerable amount of GFE to be fitted to the ships. Installation is taking longer due to the shortage of skilled technicians (priority is to keep whats at sea, at sea).

    Reported recently that we'll be returning to the tradition of naming ships after heroine's from Irish history. Constance Markewitz and Molly Childers have been suggested.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    I heard about the suggested naming convention, but we have a new Government coming in a fortnight that will be distinctly "anti-woke" in advance of three elections, so that particular avenue will probably be go nowhere.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    You must have missed the reasoning behind the policy change. Wokeness has SFA to do with it.

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran

    Well, they were more Irish mythology than Irish history, no?

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    A bit of both really.

    Macha, Cliona, Maeve, Grainne, Fola, Banba, Setanta, Ferdia, Deirdre, Emer, Aoife, Eithne, Ciara, Orla, Niamh

    All figures from Irish Mythology.

    Aisling is a poetic genre to the nation viewed as a female vision

    Roisin existed (16th Century, daughter of Red Hugh O'Neill)

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭roadmaster

    Martin saying 9 ship fleet still by 2028. Does that mean the P50s are going to be still operational and the MRV delivered by 2028?

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    I had a reply written for this, but MS Edge crashed and its all gone now.

    SummaryL This is written answers to PQs, cobbled together to make an article. Its nonsense. Its just copy/paste output from DoD that goes unchallenged.

    "The minister said…" When? When did he say it?

    Most recent PQ on naval vessels.
    My priority as Minister for Defence is to ensure that the operational capability of the Defence Forces, including the Naval Service, is maintained and developed. This is to enable the Defence Forces to carry out the roles assigned by Government. Equipment priorities for the Army, Air Corps and Naval Service are considered in the context of the established capability development and Equipment Development Planning (EDP) processes.

    Further additions to the EDP are currently under consideration, including in the context of the Government’s decision to move to a higher level of ambition, known as Level of Ambition 2 (LOA2), and in light of specific recommendations associated with a move to LOA2, made in the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces.

    The move to LOA2 includes the recommendation for an accelerated programme of naval vessel replacements, to ensure a balanced fleet of nine modern ships is reached by early in the next decade. This recommendation by the Commission of the Defence Forces as the optimum number of vessels for the Naval Service to deliver LOA2 has been accepted by Government.

    The Naval Service Vessel Renewal and Replacement Programme includes radar and other equipment upgrades along with the replacement of Naval Service Reserve motor launches. The programme of works for the midlife refit and upgrade of LÉ Róisín has been completed, while works are ongoing on LÉ Niamh.

    Marine Advisors have been appointed to support the procurement of a multi-role vessel to replace the now decommissioned flagship, LÉ Eithne, with work underway that will inform a public tender competition in line with the Public Spending code in due course. Two Inshore Patrol Vessels have been purchased from the New Zealand Government to replace the decommissioned LÉ Orla and LÉ Ciara and were delivered to Cork in 2023. They are expected to become operational later in 2024, following a programme of work, crew familiarisation and training.

    In addition to achieving a balanced fleet of 9 vessels by 2028, the move to LOA2 also provides that all modern vessels be double crewed to ensure each vessel spends a minimum of 220 days at sea per year, to be phased in over the course of the vessel replacement programme. There are a number of initiatives currently underway to counter ongoing staffing challenges in the Naval Service, including:

    • A new Patrol Duty allowance, introduced 1 January 2024, replaces the previous Patrol Duty Allowance and Sea Going Allowance. It will be payable to all personnel serving aboard a ship on duty and will see the doubling of the Patrol Duty Allowance after ten days at sea in a calendar year. For enlisted personnel this will result in an increase in the allowance paid from €64.27 per day to €128.54 per day; for officers there will be an increase from €64.67 per day to 129.24 per day.

    • As part of the Naval Service specific recruitment campaign, phase 3 of a Naval Service recruitment advertisement was launched recently.

    • There is ongoing recruitment of general service recruits, cadets and specialists.

    • Psychometric testing for Naval Service General Service recruitment was paused in 2023, on a pilot basis, for six months. The Defence Forces have advised that a pause of a further 6 months is warranted to allow for a fair determination on whether the pause was positive or negative.

    • In an effort to remove all potential obstacles to recruiting and retaining personnel, the Government has agreed to increase the maximum retirement age for Permanent Defence Force personnel to 60. This has facilitated an increase in the maximum recruitment age to 39 for those roles with a current recruitment age below 39 years. The measure will take effect from 29 March 2024 and will apply to General Service Recruits, Cadets, and certain specialists.

    • A further increase in the retirement age to 62 years will be made when relevant enabling primary legislation is introduced by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

    • In 2023, the Department engaged external specialist recruitment expertise to re-evaluate the Defence Forces current recruitment methods. Given the particular and critical issues presenting in the Naval Service, it concentrated its initial efforts there. The resulting recommendations will be progressed.

    • A sea going naval personnel tax credit has been further extended into the 2024 tax year.

    • There has also been significant progress on pay. Current pay rates, including Military Service Allowance, for the ranks of Private 3 Star/Able Seaman, in their first three years of service start at €38,016 in Year 1, rising to €39,413 in Year 2, and €40,700 in Year 3 of service.

    • A graduate cadet on commissioning starts on a payscale, which includes Military Service Allowance from €47,245 depending on the type of appointment. A school leaver cadet starts at €41,962 whilst in full-time third level education.

    I am satisfied that these measures together with those outlined in the Detailed Implementation Plan for the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces and the Strategic Framework for the Transformation of the Defence Forces will ensure the Naval Service is equipped and staffed appropriately in order to fulfil all roles assigned to them by Government.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet

    MRV procurement proceeding very slowly......

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    "Nine modern ships by early in the next decade"

    Well thats awesome ambition isn't it?

    A net increase of one whole ship, with three new builds required to achieve it. And with none of our existing ships able to comprehensively surveil the air, surface or undersea environments. All while our EEZ is being rode rock solid and the undersea international infrastructure in our AoR is completely unprotected, at least by us.

    If the P50 replacements aren't EPCs, and the MRV isn't an air defence frigate with lots of modular space below deck, we're basically pissing into the wind.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    In other news

    IPVs finally get names, 2 years after we bought them.

    More info on the Press release. Crew of just 20 should be easy to get to sea.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭roadmaster

    There are only doing 12 hour shifts so prob dont need as many crew. Still no base mentioned

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet

    I can see that LE Gobnait getting a rather rude nick name.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    Those names are poxy.

    And unpronounceable for anyone who isn't Irish. Actually, most Irish people too in fact.

    Gobnait O'Lunacy of parody songs old.

    Bring back the Dubliners pride of the Irish Navy

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,270 ✭✭✭source

    Who cares if they're unpronounceable to other nations, nobody else names their vessels based on what other countries can pronounce.

    They're a unique part of our culture and I'm delighted they've gone back to it

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    HMCS Chicoutimi

    HMNZS Manawanui

    FS Teriieroo a Teriierooiterai

    It's like during the falklands war, when the British Army used "Johnny" and "Jimmy" as passwords, knowing the enemy could only manage "Yonny" or Yimmy".

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    I surely am.

    But as names go, Gobnait was always used as a representation of an eejit, or a pious old yoke.

    They might as well have gone with LÉ Gobshite.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭tippilot

    Horrific name for a naval vessel. Outdated. Inviting ridicule. Jesus, they will keep finding ways to shoot themselves in the foot when we need to turn corners and present a new image of a modern force.

    In the middle of a recruitment crisis...Gobnait. FFS. That will get them signing up in droves. Horrific.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭roadmaster

    If the crew is only 20 would the highest rank on board be a sub-lieutenant?

    I hope they are working hard behind the scenes to secure an East Coast base or most of the IPVs work will be just travelling

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle

    In NZ service the Commanding officer would have been a Lt (NS). (NATO OF-2)

    I'd suggest initially, these would have Lt Cdr in charge, as we work to rebuild seagoing experience. The normal 2 year sea/shore rotation has gone to pot recently, and there is a newly promoted batch of Lt Cdr's that have yet to see their first command, and cannot proceed in their career until they do. In Irish service the Sub Lt could still be an Officer Under Training, depending on whether they had 3rd level before becoming a cadet or not.

    Either way the crewing arrangements will be a big change from what was seen in the past, even recenty.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,821 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution

    You've to credit the leap of imagination required to honestly believe that there's people out there who are fully determined and able to join the Navy and serve, but who will now change their mind simply because there's a ship named Gobnait.

  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭tippilot

    About these highly limited minor vessels? Nope unfortunately not. But they, along with the unfortunate name are are a done deal and pointless discussing futher.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,879 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34

    I agree with tippilot, and its certainly not all that bothers me, not by a long chalk. But it is symptomatic of the thinking at civil and command level around all of this stuff.

    Redundant, outmoded, blinkered, naive, lazy and unambitious.

    The LÉ Gobshite. Pride of the Irish Navy.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭Dohvolle