Jeffrey Donaldson steps down as DUP leader after being charged with historical sex crimes -*Read OP*

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960454#Comment_121960454

that might be the stated reason for challenging it but the real reason is they simply oppose the GFA and want nothing to do with “Catholics” - they’re the same people who tie up the swings in garden parks on Sundays in case the children experience fun on the sabbath

golfball37

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960454#Comment_121960454

they could insist on removing the deputy first minister as she was Sir Jeffrey’s appointment and she isn’t elected. I don’t think they will however and hope not as she seems to be doing fine in the role.

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960478#Comment_121960478

they simply oppose the GFA and want nothing to do with “Catholics”

Hi, could you clarify who you mean by 'they' in that ?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960498#Comment_121960498

too many to mention

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960506#Comment_121960506

Well I wasn't after a complete list of names, I kind of assumed you meant a grouping of some sort. You must have known who you meant when you said "they simply oppose the GFA and want nothing to do with “Catholics” " .... so who is 'they' ? Did you mean all Unionists and if not then who did you mean ?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960537#Comment_121960537

I never mentioned “all unionists” - my comment was in context of a particular discussion

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960545#Comment_121960545

Well jj880 said "Unionists happy to now go along with a deal brokered by someone whos been caught at what Donaldson's allegedly been caught at?" which was about Unionists in general, and you replied with "they simply oppose the GFA and want nothing to do with “Catholics” " - so without any other changing of the grouping being discussed then yeah, it implies you're talking about Unionists in general. But why not remove that implication and simply let us know who 'they' are in your post ? This is the third time I've asked, if you dodge again it really does look like you're saying all Unionists want nothing to do with Catholics.

My name is URL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960537#Comment_121960537

This isn't the hill to die on

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960600#Comment_121960600

I really don’t care what you think - I’ve made myself clear - if you can’t follow what I’m saying that’s too bad

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960614#Comment_121960614

No, you haven't. And you have ignored three requests to clarify. Do you really think that all Unionists want nothing to do with Catholics ?

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960605#Comment_121960605

Who's dying ? I'm seen many comments on boards directed at Unionists, which if they were directed at any other group would simply not be tolerated.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960623#Comment_121960623

I’ve ignored nothing - you’re just gunning for a fight and I’m not taking the bait

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960650#Comment_121960650

Nope. I genuinely don't know who you mean by 'they', I've explained why. I really hope you don't mean all Unionists. All you had to do was reply and simply say "No, I didn't mean all Unionists". But you didn't.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960664#Comment_121960664

you’ve isolated one post without taking into context of a previous post - you don’t deserve a reply for your badgering - goodbye

Beasty

Quit the bickering

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960623#Comment_121960623

Well I would imagine most unionists who are members of the Orange Order don't want anything to do with Catholics. Are you a loyal member yourself?

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960458#Comment_121960458

There's been widespread workers strikes, the scale of which hasn't been seen before. Not passive at all.

xabi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960623#Comment_121960623

yes, I have to agree about the unionist comments, well, I would have said 99%. Where are you from if you don’t mind me asking?

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960623#Comment_121960623

I could be wrong of course, but I read that as a reference to DUP and DUP-aligned unionists, seeing as the DUP were the ones who had children's swings locked up on Sundays.

That said, the political landscape has shifted a lot since those days, so I would suspect that it's no longer quite as clearcut as DUP vs other unionists, but instead refers to a certain form of unionism that is purely sectarian, that still exists but (hopefully) may not include all unionists. I don't know what percentage it would be though. Non-zero, that's for sure.

political analyst

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/allison-morris/donaldsons-allies-will-now-be-looking-over-their-shoulders-and-with-good-reason/a39191927.html

It's paywalled but here's some info from the print version in today's Indo.

Allison Morris wrote the following about ELP.

"Hers is a grace-and-favour appointment, and the man that put her there is no more. On the day she was appointed to the role, the body language of party colleagues behind her was telling. She must now know that she is in a precarious position.

The Lagan Valley seat she occupies was not won by her. It was Jeffrey Donaldson's name on the ballot. He was the candidate people voted for. If that election was re-run tomorrow, it is unlikely the outcome would be the same. In principle, she could sit it out until 2027, when the next Assembly election is due to take place.

She could hope that if she performs well in the Executive Office that she will survive this crisis. But she must feel the knives being sharpened, and without her mentor Donaldson to protect her from those in the party who have privately expressed doubts about her political acumen, she must be feeling very vulnerable."

As a barrister, ELP has already been trained in the skill of arguing. So why would she be afraid of her rivals in the DUP?

Do the parties of which the FM and DFM are members actually have the power to dismiss them? If they don't, then ELP could sit it out as DFM for the rest of the term, couldn't she?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961545#Comment_121961545

indeed - non zero - but with still quite a loud voice - it’s apparent to all unionists, moderate or otherwise, that the road of cooperation and collaboration with catholics and nationalists will lead to a place far away from where they wish to be - I personally don’t want a united Ireland - I’m perfectly happy the way the 26 counties are right now - it’s their problem to sort - but yes, there are unionists, lots of them, that would rather catholics and nationalists were not the main party right now and they don’t in any way wish to play second fiddle to them - and that will be the key reason why there are unionists out there right now actively trying to destabilise the latest return to power sharing . It’s not exactly rocket science to those trying to troll me - many unionists didn’t agree with the GFA no less the latest return to power sharing - and yes there are staunch Protestants who don’t like their kids playing on swings on Sundays

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962667#Comment_121962667

The only way to make NI work is with a functioning Stormont. Bringing down the institutions hastens a move to a united Ireland.

PeaSea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962667#Comment_121962667

Hey, if you'd said that to me instead of "too many to mention", we'd have been cool. Thanks for the eventual explanation, I can't argue with any of tha (except I'd quite like a united Ireland).

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963150#Comment_121963150

you’ve obviously thought this through more than I have so would be interested in your view as to why that would be the case.if you care to give it and absolutely not “demanding” - just interested.

My view is that staunch unionists will place whatever barrier they can in the way of action and forward movement towards some sort of state of equality and cooperation - they know that’s what will progress a situation where their culture views and values will be greatly challenged .

It would mean they need to progress and develop - not necessarily towards a united Ireland but certainly greatly away to where their minds are right now - and they don’t want to do that- simply because they’ve never envisioned such place, so they can’t imagine it

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963150#Comment_121963150

Yes and IMO this is the contradiction that nationalists have faced too, ever since the GFA in fact: if Stormont can make Northern Ireland work for everybody, then NI becomes more like Scotland and its vote against independence, with a united Ireland seeming much less "urgent" for the ordinary CNR. Because if their life is ok, they're less likely to want to risk it for an ideology whose benefits in their everyday lives are unclear.

Brexit threw that up in the air,and a UI started to seem like a more stable situation than NI with Brexit. The more uncertainty was maintained by unionists refusing to collaborate in government, the more the idea of a UI remains/ed "live" in people's minds.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963172#Comment_121963172

If Stormont collapses again, the place will trundle along for a while, rudderless, until an election is called. The unionists will vote in big numbers for the DUP, as they always do, but this time, they'll not get as big a vote as they usually do. The more hardline loyalist will defect to the TUV. The moderates will go to the UUP or Alliance and others just won't turn out. If a weakened DUP can't restart Stormont, then direct rule is the only other option. This will be unacceptable to the majority of the north and pressure will be exerted for calls for a border poll. Moreso, if SF get in down here.

Dharmacolm

Direct rule option is gone. That is the main reason the DUP returned to Stormont. It would be some form of joint rule with the Southern government being intricately involved. The British government have acknowledged this and it has been publicly stated by Chris Baker (northern ireland minister). It is also demanded by the Irish Government. An ex British secretary of state was on Ulster radio yesterday saying "Sinn Fein is running the show". His words not mine. Moderates in unionism know that persuasion for the union and not protest is the only game in town now. Staunch loyalism is dying off. Things have changed forever as far as unionism is concerned. The DUP represent 21% of the vote and UUP 11% and the trajectory is only going in one direction. Add to that that the UK majority want Irish unity and the govt want rid you can see how this all ultimately pans out. Thats without even mentioning brexit.

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969085#Comment_121969085

But yet, somehow the DUP held everybody to ransom for two years.

The London and Dublin governments, as well as the other Northern parties, all had to dance to their tune.

A democratic referendum on Irish unity seems totally out of the question, despite unionist parties now holding a minority of seats. God forbid we should should offend the unionists with talk of democratic consent. Imagine them actually have to make an argument to voters as to why remaining in the union is in their best interests.

and the people of NI didn't even want Brexit !

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969085#Comment_121969085

so it’s really down to how much noise and blockages etc, the “dwindling” staunch loyalists can make in the meantime I guess.

For the moderates, I think if I were them, I’d be setting out my stall around how I would like to see NI over the next 20 years but with a strong focus on keeping on side with the UK mainland - the bickering and posturing just looks silly now (it always did btw) - they need to stand on their own two feet and fight politically for their survival using their brains and ideas that NI people will sign up to - behaving like spoilt kids ain’t going to cut it anymore.

Dharmacolm

The DUP did indeed hold everyone to randsom for 2 years. This is because there is a veto in the North that government needs cross community consent as stated in the GFA. Many like myself think this is outdated. In saying that, things changed for unionism during that boycott. They came to realise what I was laying out in my previous post. They wont get direct rule. .. it didnt happen. They also didnt get changes to the protocol or the Irish sea border. All they got was new wording and changes to how it maybe implemented which needed zero input from the EU. That demonstrates that nothing of any significance was changed with regards to the international treaty between Britain and Europe.

They went back because it took them 2 years to realise all of the old power (always founded on British support) was gone and gone utterly. Their only option was to return with a pretend victory (protocol tweeks) and desperately hang on to an idea of unionism which becomes more and more outdated by the day.