Sinn Fein alternative

Nigzcurran

I'm not very clued in to what's left or right. I'm a so called model citizen who even paid their water charges! I want/need change in this country and don't know where to go. Up until a year ago I thought Sinn Fein were a no brainer when it came to choosing our next government but lately they seem to be morphing into just another fine Gael/fine fail. What's the alternative please?

NIMAN

You're not left with much once you rule out SF and FF/FG.

It's basically just Aontu or Soc Dems.

Or vote for your local independent.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903976#Comment_121903976

Surely a big collection of independents would be chaos trying to make decisions. I must do some research into who aontu and soc dems are

mattser

3, 2, 1 .............

FrancieBrady

Pretty simple answer to that question.

An alternative to SF would be a party that is not SF.

ABSF in other words.

tom23

not much alternative. Aontu for me are getting my vote. Soc Dems and Labour the worse of the opposition. especially Soc Dems.

maccored

"lately they seem to be morphing into just another fine Gael/fine fail" - in what way? Dont mention 'open borders' etc as thats guff you hear form people who had no idea what the party stood for in the first place. Taking the blame for **** government policies there.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907743#Comment_121907743

I'll be honest and say I dont know much about their policies, I base most of what I know on the headlines I read in the news. For the last few years it seemed that they were the opposition who were offering a complete alternative to the government. But lately they seem to be aligned with ff/fg on the likes of immigration and the referendum which are two of the biggest issues in the country that voters will be thinking of come election time

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907949#Comment_121907949

which are two of the biggest issues 

Really? How are you arriving at that idea?

Immigration may be an issue. But based on turnout alone, I don't think voters think 'Care' and 'Family' were 'issues' of much concern at all.

P.S. If you are deciding your vote of 'headlines' you are doing it wrong.

combat14

SF had been the big hope for the last 4 - 4.5 years

many would be SF voters now have massive concerns about them

they seem no different than whats there already and dont seem to have the irish peoples interest at heart anymore

the OP is correct .. the real problem is who do we vote for now there is a massive derth of true choice

tom23

Mary Lou imo is a liability. Still talking rerunning a referendum 30 mins after its declared defeated. Their fence sitting on immigration will do a lot of harm. Even if they were to put forward any solution that would give their voters some confidence. Instead there was some soundbites about reducing the payments to Ukrainians that were here already. Easy target. Folks just want a goddam workable and stricter immigration policy that doesn’t cost the taxpayer billions. So Sinn Fein deserve everything they get. And the next poll will show them falling again.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908153#Comment_121908153

SF are a socialist left wing party.

Of course thet are pro immigration! Its bizarre that some people think that SF would be anything but pro immigration.

tom23

Sinn Fein was a socialist Left wing party last Tuesday. On Wednesday they are Centre right party. Thursday they are Fianna Fáil lite. Sinn Fein don’t know what they are. But i’ll tell you what they are is populist party that will say any old shite. And their pro immigration stance or their perception that they are (they’ve been that long on the fence) will be their undoing. Don’t think FF/FG won’t change tack to save their skin? watch the space.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121908573#Comment_121908573

I think and have said here anytime the subjects came up that Sinn Féins utmost priority is to get into government in Dublin....to have the Taoiseach's office,to drive their no 1 objective, their above anything else objective,a united Ireland

Hence the pirouette's in policy all over shop,whatever way they think the wind is blowing

This strategy has pitfalls

We're seeing them

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341593/sinn-fein-alternative

Here is a rough summation of the non SF parties in the Dail right now, in order of number of TDs currently:

• Fianna Fail (36) - Traditionally the dominant party of power. The crash changed all that. Now they're just another medium sized party. Back when they were always in charge they didn't really need a political ethos. Really they're populists with s small 'p'. They changed with the population so as to stay in power. Now that they are no longer dominant they're having a bit of an existential crisis with plenty of in-fighting. Most of their support comes from older generations who have always voted for them. Whoever their next leader is will need to shape the party into something more tangible.
• Fine Gael (33) - Traditionally the main party who played second fiddle to FF. They were the party of the big farmers and higher professionals and so were seen as less populist and more conservative on economic issues. Since the 2011 election they have been in government continuously and their main ethos appears to be to protect the GDP of the country at the expense of growing inequality, most notability in an initially slow burning but now accelerating housing crisis. They are the party of the status quo. They will get quiet support from those who are happy with their lot in life and not too concerned about (or do not even see) the rising levels of poverty and homelessness in the country. They will point to record economic indicators such as GDP and unemployment as proof of the success of their stewardship of the country while also pointing out their willingness to change with the times on popular social issues such as Same Sex Marriage and Abortion.
• Green Party (11) - A small party who punches above their weight. In order to do this they need to "sell out" on many of the things that part of their own support base believes in. They do this because they believe what they do get in return is better for what they believe in (environmental, biodiversity & progressive social issues) than if they don't enter coalitions in the first place. This almost certainly was not the case when they first entered government in 2007 but has arguably paid off more for them this time out. They are absolutely reviled by left-wing populists for making this kind of Faustian Pact. They are similarly reviled by right-wing populists, who resent being told that they must change their ways. Ditto for farmers. In short, they are the most hated party in the country.
• Labour Party (7) - For much of the state's history they were the only real force in left-wing politics. However they mostly ended up in coalitions as the minority party with Fine Gael so they were never part of a purely left-wing government. During the Celtic tiger they became the party of well off public sector workers and high up union officials. Their downfall came in 2011 when they decided to go into yet another coalition government with FG. The problem for them was this was during the height of austerity and they went from criticising it to engaging in wholesale cuts without a backward glance. As such they threw all sorts of their support base under the bus and are still hated for that by many people (The Lib Dems are in the exact same scenario in the UK). Nowadays its difficult to know what they really stand for. They had an internal heave of Alan Kelly a few years ago but their polling hasn't improved under Ivana Bacik. They seem to want to be a safe left-wing alternative to the likes of PBP and SF. This a crowded area though as the Greens and Soc Dems are also fishing in this demographic pond
• Social Democrats (6) - The Soc Dems were born when Roisin Shorthall left Labour during the 2011-2016 government and set them up along with 2 independents. They gained a lot of disaffected Labour members and their own policy platform, to this day is similar to Labour's. With 2 female leaders and strong backing for the Abortion referendum they gained a large support base among young women and as a result of this they are the only multi-seat party in the Dail with more female TDs than male TDs. Like Labour their biggest problem is that they are trying to pull support from the same middles class left-wing demographic (that the Greens are also pulling from). There have man questioning what the difference is between Labour and the Soc Dems and perhaps one day they will merge but for now that doesn't seem a likely prospect.
• People Before Profit - Solidarity (5) - Left Wing Populists with a capital 'P'. As a small party their only hope of ever being in government is to enter coalition with larger parties. However they have no interest in that as it would mean Compromising which they are unwilling to do. They peddle a bunch of easy answers to all sorts of complex problems safe in the knowledge they will never actually have to enact any of them. Their foreign policy boils down to them opposing absolutely anything that the USA supports - this leads to blatant inconsistencies, such as them being loud opponents of the Israeli occupation of Palestine but extremely quiet about the Russian occupation of Ukraine. Their preferred mode of politics is the big speech where they get to castigate everyone and anyone while implying their own righteousness. Inevitably they end up falling out with each other over insignificant differences and failed purity tests, which is whey they've had several name changes, oustings, splits and merges. Student Union politics in political party form.
• Independent Ireland (3) - The newest party. As such they haven't unveiled their platform yet. Safe to say, given the 3 current TDs who are members, that it will be pro-rural, pro-farmer, anti-green and anti "woke". The only question will be how explicit will they be on immigration.
• Aontu (1) - They've only ever had one TD, Peadar Toibin who split from SF over their support for the Abortion referendum. In their early years they seemed to have policies similar to SF apart from on social issues. During the Pandemic they appeared to attract a lot of conspiracy theorists and they are also heavily supported by the extreme conservative catholics such as the ones who write for publications like Alive and the Irish Catholic. They now appear to be dipping their toes in the migration debate calling for a change to current policy. They were also the only party in the Dail to call for a No-No on the recetn two referenda.
• Right To Change (1) - Another one person party. Joan Collins is a left wing Populist in the mould of PBP. She was in a different party with now MEPs Mick Wallace and Clare Daly. Since then they has formed her own party, even though she was the only TD in the old one which really is the ultimate in left wing populist fragmentation.

There also 20 Independents who range from right wing conspiracy theorists (Mattie McGrath) to left wing Populists (Thomas Pringle) and everything in between.

Manach

Ah let me guess, extreme means anyone who disagrees with the Guardian's letter page.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121909011#Comment_121909011

I think he is pretty spot on?

I will say if I was to nitpick its Aontu who I think are a relatively normal social conservative party who get lumped in unfairly with National Party freaks .

I wouldn't vote for Aontu but they are not far right IMO.

L1011

Aontu are not far right but some of their candidates, and many of their online cheerleaders (who are very probably not even party members) are.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910594#Comment_121910594

Yeah that's not a bad point, Toibin no matter your views on his politics is a normal enough politician who has had a nice few weeks but yeah their probably is a few oddballs behind the scenes although tbf would they not be more attracted to the NP and Freedom party?

Sonic the Shaghog

Sinn Feins problem was a lot of their "new" support was people who hoped they'd deliver on actually doing something about the housing crisis.

However when you couple the fact they basically repeated the same refugees welcome like FF and FG it doesn't exactly square up trying to sort a housing crisis while constantly letting mass amounts in.

I've said it before but they are losing a lot of their traditional base is what's causing their support to drop. Whatever about the party itself from the top, any Joe soap SF voter I've ever met wasn't let say of the oul "diversity is our strength" mantra

Not to mention the flip flopping didn't help. A lot of people felt Mary Lou was going with the wind when she finally came out with that people need to be allowed voice their concerns on immigration lately when they started to notice theirs real anger out there that's getting worse and worse around immigration now.

From the whole "enjoy going back to the Ukraine for Christmas just be be back in time to keep your dole" to the 70% or so "losing their documents" now coming in.

What worse is the people that scoff at immigration concerns don't see proper anti immigration parties they have written off will take these voters along with disillusioned voters from elsewhere and it will all be hand wringing and shock when some like the Nationalist Party or something similar finally make in roads.

We were told AfD, Wilders, Trump as well as the Swedish right wing were only "a small amount of scum" that would never amount to anything. Where did that that arrogance and ignoring get them?

The way they are going I can see Sinn Fein turn into a sort of gentrified middle/upper class party and their traditional support splintering off. FF and FG at one time at least had some sort of difference to how they catered to the population but are the same now. It can easily happen.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341593/sinn-fein-alternative

What change do you want ?

Brexit is a classic example of people wanting change. And getting it. But not necessarily the change they wanted.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910740#Comment_121910740

The 2 things that affect me most is the housing crises and the waiting lists for mental health treatment so I'd like a government to do a better job of dealing with those

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913882#Comment_121913882

SF have been in Government in NI for 17 years and both of those things are much, much worse up there.

Severe problem with HSCNI (NHS) GPs firing Lyrica at everyone who can't get appropriate mental health treatment too.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914076#Comment_121914076

Thats why I'm asking what's our alternative to SF/FG/FF, I'm probably been quite silly but I was hoping there were some politicians who were actually good at their job!

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914288#Comment_121914288

It's a tricky one

Most parties have capable intelligent people(as well as gom's) but what they can do is constrained by so many factors,you'd get dizzy looking at them

There is no democratic country in the world thats any where near perfect because one set of voters needs often conflicts with another etc

foxhunter2024

Any party that isn’t penetrated by the Wef.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914359#Comment_121914359

Is it ok if they aren't backed by the WEF but they're taking $$ from George Soros and Bill Gates?

Downlinz

The only alternative to a SF led government is a continuation of the current government.

No other party will run enough candidates and even if for some reason another smaller party did run a candidate in every constituency and topped the poll in each one they'd still only have 39/174 (22%) of seats and still wouldn't be able to lead a government.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914288#Comment_121914288

Politics often attracts people who are just interested in themselves.

In Ireland it unfortunately also tends to be a family business.

Hence you get the Lenihans, Kennys, Haugheys, Foleys, Coveneys, McEntees, Cowens, etc. etc.

Now some of these can be ok, but for the most part they aren't and they get in and stay in based on family connection.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914349#Comment_121914349

The thing is the best people don't often get the job.

It can be given based on loyalty to leader, geographic location, demographic.

Prime example being McEntee as minister of justice.

The FF candidate for the job was 1000 times more qualified for the job than McEntee.

He was sacrificed possibly because FG wanted that gig, possibly because they needed another woman in cabinet (don't flame me it is a fact of life that sometimes women or another demographic are promoted to positions purely to meet some desired quota).

Either way O'Callaghan lost out and was frankly given the insulting post as second in command to an absolute comparative fool as has been highlighted when she faced up to McDowell recently.

Likewise Foley got the Education gig even though her experience to date is zero in national politics and zero outside of being a secondary teacher.

Oh and she is another family connected politician.

BTW I used these two as examples, but there are many examples of males getting jobs they are not qualified to attempt.

I could just list the Green ministers for starters.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121907949#Comment_121907949

theres your problem - reading headlines rather than checking facts. I see it a lot on social media for example where theres claims of no borders (which is false, provable by their last two or three manifestos) and talk of being globalists (pretty sure they got the WEF badge mixed up with the National Youth Council of Ireland badge) and how SF and the government are to blame. When asked to explain that (as I often have) the reply usually is either 'theyre all the same' or 'they're all in the Dail'. I'd be sure a lot of it is people interested in making sure SF lose votes (ie, ff/fg) but when you tie in the tripe that you'd read in a lot of the main press - you cant believe the headlines. Things like promising another referendum - made up insinuations from other infomation (like 'we'd send it back for rewording' - that apparently means hold a new referendum). I say roll on the elections and we'll see how things stand. The current government has made a complete hash of everything - now with immigration added to housing, health etc etc

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963786#Comment_121963786

Mary Lou did say Sinn Féin would re run the referendum

Dont be saying she didn't

She flip flopped very quickly

Text book populism

Sinn Féin mis read the room just like the government did so cant be throwing stones in that particular glass house

Other greenhouses not made of glass are available