[Resolved] Warning Level 2

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121887604#Comment_121887604

https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1767891182300893260

I'd like to establish why I'm currently on a Warning Level 2.

This follows three interventions in Current Affairs from moderator Ten of Swords as far as I can tell. All on March 13th

I have read the charter for Current Affairs both previously and since and cannot fathom the basis for these warnings or points.

In the first, on March 13th, I was warned for 'use of anecdote'. This was a direct experience I personally had and related precisely to the thread and it's subject matter. How can we use Boards if we can't relate experiences that happen to us???

Furze99✭✭✭

Mar 13, 2024

Asylum seekers smash up Dungarvan hotel

Stopped by Clonea Beach for a lunch break there last autumn. Found that the hotel carpark overlooking the sea was all closed up and parked back up the road a bit. Plenty of space in this car park but then all these dudes in quite fancy cars started pulling in close to me, had been collecting kids from somewhere and walking down to the hotel. It clicked then that this place, once a popular tourist hotel had been taken over. But they weren't Ukrainian by the look of them. What struck me at the time was the laziness and lack of self awareness. There's was loads of space to park but as I was near that end they were all crowding in around me. I gave up and moved my car up a bit to where there was more space. Says it all in a metaphor. Give these lads an inch and they'll take the proverbial mile.

In the second on also Mar 13th, on the Russia thread - a video was posted showing some Ukr helicopters being attacked. I replied "Do we believe anything we see these days?" as below and for this I received a warning from Ten of Swords and a point. How on earth does this breach either warnings on the thread or the charter???

Furze99✭✭✭

Mar 13, 2024

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

TheValeyardMar 13, 2024

Horrific for the Ukranian airforce

Do we believe anything we see these days?

Finally in the third also on Mar 13th, on the Russia thread - there was a discussion re both military aid for Ukraine and it's need for manpower. In response to another poster I wrote as below, recommending in moderate language that we apply the law to those who left Ukraine illegally. For this crime, I was accused by Ten of Swords again of 'derailing the thread' and given a point. My post was directly related to matters on the thread concerning this war. It's baffling how this could be construed as derailing. What are poster supposed to be discussing - the Eurovision?

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

roosterman71Mar 13, 2024

We can't actually do it. We cannot, in any way shape or form, return asylum seekers to Ukraine (or anywhere for that matter) after we've agreed to bring them in and support them in their efforts to remains safe and well and away from an active war zone. We can't do it. It's not possible. It's illegal. Do you understand that? If not, read up. if you do, why oh why do you keep asking the same thing?

I don't like the reason because if someone has left a warzone, got asylum in a country to then pack them up and send them off back to it. Ignore the legality of it, but it's cruel too. I think of myself where if I had to up sticks and leave my home because some hoor invaded and was intent on killing me, it would be cruel to then send me back there after agreeing to protect me in my new location.

I hear some people mention this angle too of course. Doesn't mean they are right (they aren't).

How do you determine a "genuine war refugee"? Aren't they all genuine from Ukraine - the country is being invaded!

I don't know how you compare sending refugees back to a war and voting no in a referendum. We are all not stupid, but by jaysus a growing percentage of the population are getting thicker as the years pass, fueled by entitlement, bitterness and spending too much time in echo chambers to confirm their beliefs.

This should be parked here. You're repeated assertion is not happening no matter how much you come out with the same rubbish.

My reply below

No frankly I don't understand this. Legislation is made by our sovereign states with overarching directives from the EU etc.

There is absolutely no reason why Ukraine, the EU and states like Ireland should not co-operate for the return of people who left Ukr without legitimate permission. None, no reason at all.

We already see today that the supports for Ukr war refugees is changing tomorrow, we brought in our generous scheme at the apparent behest of the EU. But we have seen that our offering was substantially out of kilter with other states and have moved (too slowly many would say) to change it.

It's not the case that we just throw our hands in the air and do nothing to help our friends, in the administration in Ukraine.

Please explain how posters can engage with each other respectfully on Current Affairs with this manner of arbitrary moderating.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341566/warning-level-2

Hi Furze99.

As you’re probably aware, the first step in the dispute resolution process is to contact the moderator directly; @Ten of Swords and try to resolve it amicably through PMs. If you have done this already and you have not received a reply, please bear in mind we’re coming into a long bank holiday weekend. If you have not contacted ToS about the above, your complaint cannot proceed to the next stage should you be dissatisfied with the outcome of stage 1 of the process.

You still have plenty of time by the rules of the DR process, and I’ll watch the time for you and alert you if there has been a reply that you did not respond to.

Does that sound fair?

-Shield

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903272#Comment_121903272

That's fine, and appreciate if you'll follow up if needed. I have sent messages querying this to Ten of Swords on 14th, 15th and earlier this evening.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121903272#Comment_121903272

Hi Shield, I've left this a few days but no real progress to report with the relevant moderator Ten of Swords. I did receive a reply from same simply stating 'Due to accumulated warnings the system will impose various restrictions upon your profile. Once the points expire (each one lasts 1 week) the warning level will return to normal.' and when I queried again where I'd gone wrong, a reply 'Which warning are you disputing?' Nothing since - but I gather same mod may be dealing with multiple messages & complaints these last few days..

I'm aware these points expire but I'm concerned as I can see no reason why they were applied in the first place and it hasn't been pointed out where they contravene either the C&A charter or are offensive or not related to the threads in question. It's the completely arbitrary nature that is concerning.

I would suggest that this particular moderator is not suited to the Current Affairs forum. It covers a very wide variety of matters arising in daily life and the news and from what I can judge, they are not up to speed with either the items under discussion and/or the events of the day. Some posts are picked out as they contain 'anecdote' which according to this mod is not allowable. But aren't posters daily life experiences part & parcel of boards, what is wrong with personal anecdote and what's the difference between anecdote and reportage?

Obviously I understand that moderators give of their time freely and that is appreciated. But poor & inconsistent or worse partial moderation undermines peoples willingness to contribute and is clearly not in the interests of anyone.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121914508#Comment_121914508

Hello again!

As long as PMs are being exchanged within reasonable timeframes, then there is a chance that this can still be resolved amicably. If you do not get a reply from @Ten of Swords within another few days with final decision, then drop another note here tagging me just to make sure your complaint does not get lose in the cracks.

I have no say in who gets to be a moderator or category moderator. My function here is simply to guide you through the process should you have questions or the like. I do not involve myself in the substance of a complaint. I simply outline the process, if asked, answer questions objectively and move on.

For what it’s worth, @Ten of Swords is perhaps the busiest moderator on the site and he has my full support. If you could see the amount of work he does behind the scenes, I reckon you’d reconsider your view that he is not suited to mod CA.

-Shield

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922051#Comment_121922051

Thanks, I've had no further response from TenofSwords. I'm still on Warning Level 2. Frankly there's no point in me messaging them further. They have not many any attempt to proffer advice as to why these warnings were given in the context of the CA charter. Seems to be a take it or leave it attitude.

I hope you'd agree that moderators should not let their own personal views interfere with moderation on CA threads. Clearly they should judge by the charter principles and any part stated thread guidelines:

1. We have one guiding principle: Don't be a dick.
2. Do not post any material that you know or should know is hateful, abusive, harassing, false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, vulgar, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or illegal.
3. You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil. Hate speech, insults, and purposely inflammatory remarks (i.e., trolling) will not be tolerated. Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm. If we tell you to refrain from behaviour that we regard as uncivil, or that in our view detracts from a productive discussion, do so or face revocation of your posting privileges.
4. We reserve the right to delete any post for any or no reason whatsoever.

The principle justification that ToS seems to use is the last #4 and that is not healthy.

But thanks for taking an interest in it. I'll leave it awhile and see what happens.

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121922221#Comment_121922221

Yes, I agree that moderator’s personal views should not supersede Boards’ rules and fora charters. We agree on that.

To be honest with you, I haven’t even looked at your posts or warnings. It’s not my job to do that. As I stated earlier, Spear and I are here to moderate the forum, which mostly involves helping users understand the process, how it works, and so on.

You are still well within the time limits to have your dispute reviewed by an admin because you are resetting the clock every time you post looking for an update. Give @Ten of Swords until next week to reply to your PMs and we’ll see how things go. As I said previously, he does a ferocious amount of behind the scenes work so with that in mind, watch out for your notifications and hopefully he’ll get to this as soon as he has a free minute.

Cheers,

-Shield

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121923488#Comment_121923488

Just following up on these disputed warnings from Ten of Swords. The moderator was in touch by PM over the weekend regarding these three warnings all issued on one day 13th March. They have acknowledged that one was an error and that another was inappropriate as no thread guidance. However despite this the Warning Level 2 stayed in place but expires tomorrow.

The third regarding the Russia thread and the issues surrounding conscription in Ukraine for state service and how it relates to Ukrainians in Ireland, the moderator upholds on the basis that "You have made multiple posts over the space of a week advocating the removal of Ukranians from Ireland and repatriation to Ukraine. At this point it is simply soapboxing on thread and is causing considerable annoyance to other users"

First of all, there were two or three posts of this nature that day or preceding in response to various replies, all related. There were no other multiple posts that week from me on the matter, it had come up about a month previously but that is not unreasonable. What exactly is 'soapboxing' and is it the same as expressing an opinion and also why is expressing a valid opinion 'causing considerable annoyance to other users' a problem? I can't answer this but I can make a reasonable working assumption that some of those who don't like this suggestion are in fact Ukrainian citizens here in Ireland but who have left Ukr to avoid service.

This is the text below of what I was warned & infracted for again - does this break the CA charter??

"No frankly I don't understand this. Legislation is made by our sovereign states with overarching directives from the EU etc.

There is absolutely no reason why Ukraine, the EU and states like Ireland should not co-operate for the return of people who left Ukr without legitimate permission. None, no reason at all.

We already see today that the supports for Ukr war refugees is changing tomorrow, we brought in our generous scheme at the apparent behest of the EU. But we have seen that our offering was substantially out of kilter with other states and have moved (too slowly many would say) to change it.

It's not the case that we just throw our hands in the air and do nothing to help our friends, in the administration in Ukraine."

If it doesn't break any charter and is not repugnant to the thread https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058195983/russia-threadbanned-users-in-op/p1

then I don't see how anyone can post on this thread without the possibility of random censorship.

I've no particular wish to prolong this issue but I raise it as inconsiderate and inappropriate moderating makes Current Affairs/IMHO unusable. There was absolutely no reason at all to interfere on this thread as regards this post and I suggest the mod concerned is just making up excuses above. Let's recall the charter which says: You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil.

Thanks & kind regards

Shield

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943294#Comment_121943294

Ok then, it seems that some progress has been made, so that’s positive.

It now seems that you are only disputing one warning. The first was an error, the second was “no thread guidance”; which essentially means it will be reversed/expunged from your profile in due course, and the third warning is the only one still in dispute.

Seeing that these warnings were all issued by a CMod, the next step will be to flag this for admin attention and let one of them take it from here. I will tag just one admin @Big Bag of Chips and they can decide amongst themselves who will review your appeal. Bear in mind that an admin’s decision is final and cannot be appealed.

For now, it’s over to the admins, and you’ll be contacted as soon as someone is available.

Cheers,

-Shield

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944132#Comment_121944132

Cheers & thanks for help with the matter.

Shield

Pinging @Big Bag of Chips as a reminder that it’s been a week since the OP @Furze99 posted here and is still patiently awaiting the result of their appeal.

Thanks.

-Shield

Big Bag of Chips

Thanks @Shield .

@Furze99 I haven't ignored this! I'm just trying to find out if one of the other Admins more familiar with the forum want to look at it. I will check with them again, it may have been missed. And if not I'll look at it.

Thanks for your patience so far.

awec

I can take a look at this.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971039#Comment_121971039

Thanks curiously I was just messaging you re this.

awec

Hi Furze,

Firstly, of the 3 warnings that you mention in your OP, only 1 of them actually still stands, the other 2 are already reversed. One as there was no in-thread warning about anecdotes in the thread in question, and the other because it was applied in error to the wrong post.

Which leaves us with the third post about Ukrainians going home in the Russia thread.

This was, by my quick count, at least your 7th post in the Russia thread expressing faux-concern about Ukrainians leaving Ukraine. Despite it being explained to you multiple times that international law protects these people in Ireland, you persisted with this narrative that we should be sending them home to fight. Dropping into the thread, posting some anti-immigrant post thinly veiled as concern about people dodging the war and ignoring other posters when it was explained why what you want cannot happen.

This is, by any definition, soapboxing.

This warning is upheld.

Further to this, since Jan 2023 you have picked up roughly 28 mod warnings or infractions. 12 alone since January 2024. This is an awful record. In particular, it is clear that you are struggling to contribute to the Current Affairs forum without being uncivil, trolling or soapboxing.

You have avoided an automatic 5 week site ban due to leniency from mods in the actions they are taking. Had the CA mods banned you from the forum it would be difficult for me to find a reason to overrule them.

If your current record of mod actions continues then further action will have to be taken. Please try to stay off the radar for a while.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973337#Comment_121973337

Hello Awec, I read your response to this matter this morning and mulled it over for a while. Firstly I appreciate your voluntary time on the site. That said I think you are quite mistaken in your analysis and approach. This warning I disputed above & below is really a trifling matter, something that would expire in a few days. I raised it though as an example, as it amply demonstrated the often whimsical & partial moderation on Current Affairs threads. Following this there has been a discussion on such matters and the decline of Boards to which I have hopefully usefully contributed. And of more below.

As to my disputed post and for the benefit again of other users I'll repeat it:
"No frankly I don't understand this. Legislation is made by our sovereign states with overarching directives from the EU etc.
There is absolutely no reason why Ukraine, the EU and states like Ireland should not co-operate for the return of people who left Ukr without legitimate permission. None, no reason at all.
We already see today that the supports for Ukr war refugees is changing tomorrow, we brought in our generous scheme at the apparent behest of the EU. But we have seen that our offering was substantially out of kilter with other states and have moved (too slowly many would say) to change it.
It's not the case that we just throw our hands in the air and do nothing to help our friends, in the administration in Ukraine."

There is nothing either uncivil or abusive or against any site rules that I know of in this and it was perfectly relevant to the thread that has run for over two years on the Russian invasion of Ukraine. My post had nothing to do with immigration… indeed Ukrainians here are war refugees, not illegal immigrants. My post was entirely addressed to the manpower needs of the Ukrainian army, their possible breaking of legislation on leaving their state and our support of their laws and sacrifice on our behalf. Indeed two previous generations of my family have gone to war on behalf of Western Europe and I appreciate that Ukraine is currently saving us from this fate. I refute your allegation that I'm soapboxing, the manpower & conscription issues have arisen before and even this very day in news & current affairs. They are very relevant. I think I commented on it last year, in Feb of this year and a few weeks later in March, hardly frequent. Compare that to the almost daily rhetoric concerning supply of munitions or the repetitive stances in other thread.. That you and Ten of Swords or others on that thread conflate Ukrainian manpower & conscription issues with immigration is nothing to do with me. I have no interest in this warning other than to raise it to flag it's gagging and censorious nature as an example.

You raise what you say is a 'poor record'. These warnings etc mostly arise from the two moderators Ten of Swords and Raichu. Let's just say that as per the testimony from others on the Graveyard thread, that several are these are partial & petty. Quite the contrary, I always write in good faith, occasionally poking a little fun, often helping others, discussing and debating points of view. Therefore I resent your implication that in my 10K posts that I'm being routinely uncivil, trolling etc. In truth it's often the other way but as you'll note from my list of 'Reports', there are none. I treat others as I'd like to be treated myself, a lesson a few could learn. Francie Brady is a great poster on this site, we often disagree and sometimes agree but never fall out - no petty running to report someone. And there are many others like Francie.

What I do find disappointing is that on the current 'Site is a Graveyard' thread, there has been much feedback that Boards moderation is partial, lacking and protective. The we see fine words from mods and admins there that a new dispensation must be found and that there are issues etc. But your response above kinda belies this and seems intended to insult and drive an honest poster away from the site.

@Shield @Big Bag of Chips

awec

You are correct, your post wasn't abusive or uncivil, but you're completely ignoring what you got infracted for. You were infracted for thread derailment and soapboxing, which ironically you are now doing here as well.

You say you post in good faith, maybe you do, maybe you don't. Maybe you're deliberately soap boxing, or maybe you just don't realise that your style is unacceptable.

Either way you are soapboxing, and it needs to stop.

Your record is not a coincidence, there's no great conspiracy with mods out to get you. You keep picking up infractions because you keep appearing on the radar for the wrong reasons. Take the hint and improve how you engage.

This DRP is now closed.