At what age do we become doddery?

Dial Hard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773469#Comment_121773469

I'm 42 and even I don't consider 75 old. My Dad was reffing league football til he was 74.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773381#Comment_121773381

What a staggeringly patronising, ill informed, generalised pile of nonsense.

banie01

I don't know if there is a set age 😉 but I will tell you this much, I think I already am at 44🥺

The sheer amount of effort I had to put into recalling "Lady Gregory" yesterday was shocking! I knew who she was, who she was associated, her works and even works that was patron or muse to.

Yet, in the middle of a conversation I could recall all that, yet not her name🤦‍♀️🤷‍♂️

I need to start doing crosswords and a bit of brain training before I descend into dotage.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784138#Comment_121784138

Well, that's not very specific. What did you disagree with, exactly?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766121#Comment_121766121

70 plus is like the new 50's these days. I hear a lot of ages in the late 80's and even 90 from my parents social circle who are still flying it, playing bridge, going for walks, playing golf, some even still driving.

But these days doddery seems to be around the late 80's mark. But if people keep active and keep their mind active, they seem to last longer in the non-doddery stakes. But dementia, cancer, tiredness, falls normally catch up on people.

looksee

El Duderino - Well, that's not very specific. What did you disagree with, exactly?

Depends on what exactly you mean. Some cognitive impairment generally begins around 60, proper cognitive decline usually begins around 70, and 80 year olds are generally only going well if you hold them to a totally different standard than your average adult. But everyone is different. Bell curves and all that.

Old people have really interesting memories of a time that I didn't live through. So it can be fun to talk to them. But I wouldn't depend on them for serious insights into modern problems because, in my experience, they haven't a scooby and it takes them forever to get to the point of demonstrating that they haven't a scooby.

There's a reason we don't hold old people to the same standards as the rest of us, and it's because most would fail miserably. Give every 60± year old driving lessons and a driving test and I'll bet almost none would pass because most have given up on learning. But, we know old people having the independence of driving is good for them. So, we wouldn't dream of giving them a test - because we know most wouldn't pass.

Most old people are grand. They're patronised for a good reason, don't think too hard about it or you'll probably find they're not all they're cracked up to be.

I know only one old person who can listen to more than a sentence or two on a topic she isn't already familiar with without getting bored and interrupting. This wonan is class and she's nearly 89

'Some cognitive impairment generally begins around 60, proper cognitive decline usually begins around 70, and 80 year olds are generally only going well if you hold them to a totally different standard than your average adult.' You state this as though it is fact, then try and qualify it with 'everyone is different'. 'Some people may start to experience cognitive decline around 60, some may have 'proper' cognitive decline at 70 etc.' That puts me well into the 'proper' range and I only have a couple of years before I collapse into a wittering heap. But 'everyone is different' so there's your out. You can apply 'everyone is different' to any mad generalisation you want to apply to any section of the community.

'Old people' can be fun to talk to. Well I am so happy that we have some use to you. But not trusting them for insights into modern problems - seriously? I can't even begin with this one. I wonder what a 'modern' problem is? What is the lower age limit for understanding them? 'in my experience' yes well possibly all those entertaining old people realised that they hadn't a hope of discussing anything with you with your closed minded, narrow view and concescending attitude towards them, so they just didn't bother.

'There's a reason we don't hold old people to the same standards as the rest of us', no, I am not going there.

Is this a wind up, or are you genuinely as patronising as you appear?

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784315#Comment_121784315

Well I’m 30 so I consider 70 old.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784081#Comment_121784081

Of course it's not old, but saying 75 he was only a young man?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784390#Comment_121784390

I would say by the time you reach that age you would be still working.

When you think of it when 65 was made the pension age, it was under the assumption that people only had about 10 years left. These days the pension age been moved to 70,

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/6b939-minister-humphreys-announces-landmark-reform-of-state-pension-system-in-ireland/

by the time you reach the pension age it could be 75 or even 80.

People are living a lot longer, and are much healthier than years ago.

mariaalice

Older age is complex, my sister runs with a few in their 70s who run marathons, Joe Biden is the president of the US, that's not everyone's story and I don't know if it is social media or what but there is a tenancy to ignore the complex realities no amount of saying it actually makes 70 the same as 50.

mariaalice

Anyway, all the social media and general chit-chat, 70 is the new 50 and the like is a conspiracy to soften everyone up for 70 being the new pension age :)

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784453#Comment_121784453

Well today's five year olds it will be common to live into their 90's

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/life-expectancy

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784475#Comment_121784475

I disagree people are living longer they are much healthier, their minds are much sharper, more educated, and crucially technology has lead to major changes in the work people have to do. Also medical advances,

In 1950 Ireland's life expectancy was 65

In 1970 Ireland's life expectancy was 70

In 1990 Ireland's life expectancy was 75

In 2020 Ireland's life expectancy was 82

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/IRL/ireland/life-expectancy

It only stands to reason that the "doddery stage" is going to change as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK513075/

looksee

If we are talking about 'doddery' I would interpret this as unsteady on one's feet, though there is an implication of not being mentally sharp. This latter could be connected with hearing issues, it could also relate to medication, or chronic pain, or it could indeed be developing senility.

But also it could be that the people who 'get by' when they are younger, not thinking too hard or critically about anything, not attempting to have opinions, political or otherwise, because they are not interested, have never paid much attention to what is going on outside their immediate family, and find it easier to just go along with the opinions they were fed as children. If they were not very interesting as 40 year olds, they are not going to be interesting as 70 year olds. The more they do not push themselves to figure things out, exercise their brain, the more likely they are to become cognitively challenged.

I have a group of half a dozen or so people around my age, we range between late 70s and early 80s up to 88. We get together to have lunch and chat and the conversation ranges through politics, social affairs, local happenings, interests, and our families. I have not noticed any limitations to viewpoints. One has very racially mixed sons and daughters in law, two others have adult children in same sex relationships, a couple have grandchildren with various forms of disability, mostly fairly minor but still needing special attention. Everyone is very relaxed and open about all of these situations.

I could find among people that I know (some of them are relatives) another half dozen that would bore me to distraction by their conversation and negativity and general grouchiness. But they were like that when they were 30, it hasn't suddenly appeared.

As far as physical 'doddery-ness' goes, yes you do tend to have more physical issues as you get older. The longer you live the more time you have to aquire issues, but also older people naturally become less flexible, have less stamina, but it absolutely depends on the individual. There are people still running and swimming in their 80s and older. Others might have started to physically slow down much younger. I became a lot more doddery about 5 years ago as a result of a botched medical procedure, it didn't affect my intelligence though.

The slow and fumbling person at the supermarket checkout may have arthritis in their hands. Older people can tend to get tired more easily, its difficult to look sharp and alert when you are exhausted, but that also applies to any age. It gets more difficult to lift things and climb steps to do little jobs around the house, so yes, more help may be needed there. It can get more difficult to remember things, but this does not imply senility, you can have opinions and be able to function perfectly normally, but lose the odd word or forget a name more readily than when you were younger.

One real frustration of getting older is the attitude occasionally of some younger people, doctors who have the 'what do you expect, you are old' answer to any issues. People in 'institutional' situations (hospitals and medical mostly) who lean into your face and shout 'and how are we today?' That's more on them than on me though, I feel free to think they are just a bit stupid.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784430#Comment_121784430

I won’t be personally but I’d say you are of course correct on the pension age. Either way 70 is old in my head, working or not.

Strumms

Indeed. The exact definition of doddery is indeed limited to ones physicality.

adjective

1. slow and unsteady in movement because of weakness in old age.
2. "he's a bit doddery on his legs and doesn't get about much"

an aunt of mine is doddery as fûck, currently hospitalised following a fall.

she had to get operated on…

she has a carer coming twice a day, her daughter bought a place next door, does all her shopping and is basically a second carer

in about 4 years she went from a well enough woman… driving, collecting the grandkids, once a week playing 9 holes of golf, going on very active holidays, cruises etc…. To doing none of the above, basically zero independence outside her own house.

the scary thing is the rapid decline. Free, well and able ….to completely unable.

the operation she’s having is aimed to relieve pain as she was eating painkillers like smarties which as she admitted… “ were making me stupid high “ and leading to other issues…. So any physical limitations will not be fixed…in any major way anyway.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785013#Comment_121785013

Well I don't know about that, I mean my auld fella back in 2011 he would have been pushing 70.

Himself and the lads he plays golf with (some over decade older than him at the time) even than were well up on current affairs, at the time the discussion was Pipa Middleton's ass - at Prince William's wedding.

The reason I know is because he went shouting at me while beside the computer after he came back, "How do I find the picture of yer wan's arse, we were talking about it at the golf club!"

--

Even now pushing 80 he likes to keep up on sport/current affairs. Has a smart phone, uses email, knows how to facetime etc. Still plays golf, still exercises everyday (free weights and all 5kg and 10kg), golf etc. Does painting and DIY, even cleans the gutters up on the ladder. And he has his favourite RTE weather girls.

Life does not stop when you get "old" by your definition these days.

Rubberchikken

Health plays a big part. Good health is so important. Hobbies. Interests. Consistent exery.

I'd also say non smoking and easy on the alcohol.

I work with elderly people most living with dementia and while I wouldn't use the word 'doddery', they're definitely not comparable to others younger or healthier.

The one big health issue we see is diabetes. And I really don't think people take it seriously enough.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785066#Comment_121785066

I don’t really get your issue, is it that you are close to 70? I just think 70 plus is old. Like old people in my head are 70 plus. The OPs question isn’t very scientific just like my very unscientific reply. I’m delighted your dad is living a very full life. 1 example not really going to shift my opinion of what I’d consider old. But sure look maybe I’ll change my mind when I’m 50.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784363#Comment_121784363

Genuinely as patronising as you think.

You ignored the 'some may' part in the bit discussing cognitive decline. So you may, or may not be experiencing decline, the odds certainly increase with age. Unless we're pretending the odds of cognitive decline don't increase with age.

Modern problems i wouldn't rush to older people for advice on would include: modern employment issues, housing, technological issues. Not because none of them could possibly have good insights, but in my experience, the odds of good insights is lower and the odds of outdated info is much greater than your average punter. Parenting advice is a mixed bag in my experience. Some good, practical tips, some outdated garbage.

It'd often interesting to get older people's opinions, for context and sometimes for examples of what not to do.

There are great reasons to ignore cognitive and physical decline. Driving is a good example. When an older person drives poorly, it's probably better to let them drive and have their independence, than to take their driving licence from them. That would likely accelerate the problems. So we ignore it and pretend he average older driver is as good as the general population. I'm fine with that.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785218#Comment_121785218

There is no ‘issue’ and I am not close to 70! One of the funniest boards assumptions in a long time.

My main tenet is that the population of Ireland lives much longer and is much healthier than years gone by. Technology as well means the doddery factor is much later than it once was in previous eras. Simple as that.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785600#Comment_121785600

fair enough, 70 is still old though I mean the current male life expectancy is 78 ffs. So the extremely young 70 year olds have an expected 8 years left.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766767#Comment_121766767

How do you find the work environment? Do you experience ageism? Or do you struggle to put in the same mental effort?

I have worked in many employments and I don't tend to stay anywhere longer than 3 years but I have seen ageism in US multinationals in recent years.

Panrich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785657#Comment_121785657

I’m fine at work so far. I work in a very specialised area and I have been in my role for 25 years now. I do certainly find that I have less energy or inclination to spend long hours at work nowadays and part of my job would entail being around to support or implement out of hours work on IT systems. I haven’t found mental fatigue a big factor so far but I have started to keep a work diary this year as I now do forget the odd task if I don’t write them all down.

My company is a US corporation but I’m lucky enough to be the only direct employee on site looking after a team of subcontractors so the ethos is not really visible to me on a day to day basis.

JDD

With my parents, neither of whom suffered with any major health problems in their lives, I noticed it at about 74.

My mother started to have a shake in her hand when lifting the teapot. My father, who had always had the ability to see both sides of every story, started to only see one side of a story. My mother began to have a stoop. My Dad began to leave cups of tea around the house, and found tasks involving paperwork suddenly very overwhelming.

Of course, there are still 74 year olds, and 80 year olds running marathons. Or 75 year olds running massive organisations, making speeches, recalling every fact. But they are outliers, in my opinion.

So if I manage to make it past 74, still fit and still compos mentis, I'll regard that as a win.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785636#Comment_121785636

I think you misunderstand the main premise of this thread. The OP has asked the question of "what age do we become doddery?"

Meaning at what stage do mental and physical faculties start to fail people in general. By your logic my 5 year old niece would think you are very old at 32.

But that is the question of this thread is not what do we think "old" is the question is at what stage do people become "doddery" to use the OP's phrase.

To factor that in you have to look at a myriad of factors beyond the number of the age itself.

--

I think keeping active is a key part to extending a fulfilled life, delaying both mental and physical frailties.

Besides healthy living and lifestyle. It occurred to me that is no coincidence that when one part of an elderly married couple dies, a lot of the times the other dies not long after. Normally it seems to me that the one left behind "gives up" and stops living life the way they used to.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121789091#Comment_121789091

Well I think people are generally doddery at 70, Irish males 8 years left to live on average

miamee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121784397#Comment_121784397

There is still plenty of living left to do at that age, generally people are healthier for longer now than they were 20 years ago.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785218#Comment_121785218

I am currently listening to the Pat Kenny show on Newstalk. He has no problem running this programme for 3 hours, talking to Ukrainian politicians, road engineers, musicians, etc . He is a dozen years older than me and I am not that bright at 9am!

miamee

Enjoying all the replies to this, when I used the word 'doddery' in the OP I was thinking of mental capacity but it seems I misused the word if it relates to physical capabilities as some have pointed out.

I possibly didn't word it well but was aimed more at the patronising point at which people begin to treat you as 'doddery', a bit like @looksee's example of being in a medical setting and having people ask them loudly 'How are we today?'. My gran had occasion to be in A&E last year in a nearby hospital for a minor issue and they were shocked that they had no file on her because she'd never been there before - she'd have been 91 or 92 at the time. There was a lot of "don't you look great" and "You're still living at home on your own, wow" She found it very amusing tbh, there's not a thing wrong with her.