Builder cut corners

dublincc2

Hi folks, my eldest daughter moved into a house she built herself, myself and my son-in-law supervised most of the construction, the son-in-law having a background in construction was wary of the quality of the builders but the job was already underway.

Myself and son-in-law spent two weeks building a wooden garden shed in the back garden over a the Christmas holiday into the New Year, when we finally completed it we noticed that most of the patio tiles were loose, and the gutter fittings to the outside of the house were loose, one of them blew off and fell to the ground during the storm.

The builder has declined to do anything when called, saying that it was the quality of the materials and not their work at fault, they have not answered calls since.

Is there any route that can be taken? I am not sure legally where we stand but my daughter wants as little hassle as possible just needs the builders to take responsibility and fix it.

banie01

You're 1st sentence raises an important question. You mention your son in law and yourself supervised most of the construction. Either ye did and are responsible for not doing so adequately? Or ye didn't.

Supervision of the build would have meant actually checking BOMs and materials along with checking ongoing works and ensuring that the spec agreed to in the contract were being met.

I'm not trying to excuse shoddy workmanship on the part of the builder but if you are claiming that there was supervision on your part? Then there was very clearly a failure on your part too. With that in mind, I'd advise you to drop that particular bent of thinking if you pursue a remedial action.

As to what can be done. Was there a contract in place? Did it specify fixtures and finishes? Was there a snagging list completed before handover? Were any issues raised regarding issues prior to the final drawdown or payment?

elperello

So you have loose patio tiles and storm damaged rainwater goods.

Are there any other problems ?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764210#Comment_121764210

It was supervised adequately.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768328#Comment_121768328

It definitely wasn't which rises the question. Is this a spoof because its a poor attempt.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768328#Comment_121768328

I'm confused. If you supervised it adequately then how did the builder cut corners?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768357#Comment_121768357

Perhaps not adequately enough, but I personally did not observe any issues.

It was only a few weeks after completion about a week and half into myself and son-in-law assembling the wooden garden shed that we noticed the patio tiling was loose after walking on it and seeing it was moving. The gutter became loose after that during the stormy weather and subsequently blew off.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768388#Comment_121768388

It’s obvious he didn’t secure the fittings for the gutters or enough sealant into the patio tiles. This was unnoticed and from the outside it appeared sound.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768400#Comment_121768400

Background in construction..

.. sealant in the patio tiles..

Windup.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768328#Comment_121768328

It very clearly wasn't.

Good luck explaining that although the build was adequately supervised, that you now have issues. Issues with the work that you adequately supervised.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768430#Comment_121768430

Even the trolls are cowboys these days 🤠

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768430#Comment_121768430

No

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768824#Comment_121768824

Then what the hell supervision were you doing if you didn't see something as obvious as a patio not being put down properly, or guttering not being up to scratch? I dread to think what else was missed.

Havenowt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768920#Comment_121768920

What would you expect him to do? count the amount of shovels of sand and cement going into the mixer?

Climb the ladder and check the screw fixing of each peice of guttering?

Builders should have a little be of pride in their work, not the **** it, it will do. They wont see it from down there attitude.

lawred2

I'd say supervision extended to "yeah he's on site today"

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770509#Comment_121770509

A competent builder should be able to supervise their own work and not attempt to blame material when faults after the fact. If materials were so bad, they should have raised that at time of fixing gutters.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770587#Comment_121770587

TBF, that is one of the obvious problems in not employing someone to oversee the build. The op cut corners by doing it themselves. The job is spec’d and given to a builder, whoever is overseeing the build ensures the spec if followed and signed off before the job is complete.

By external tiles in patio, is that paving stones? There is usually sand under those.

MoodeRator

"the son-in-law having a background in construction was wary of the quality of the builder"

"Myself and son-in-law spent two weeks building a wooden garden shed"

Hope correct sealant was applied

blade1

Yourself and the son in law should have done the work. Would have taken the same amount of time as supervising it properly and would have met your standards

Kaisr Sose

Assume paving slabs on patio too. I have seen lots of paving (and cobblelock) that is laid very poorly. Down of this is work performed for council or in private carparks. It would have me avoid it.

I understand that getting someone to supervise a build is a good investment but not everyone can afford that level of involvement. Any builder that takes pride in their work, or level of skill should still require minimal supervision. How difficult is it to fix guttering and use correct fastener (or source better ones). At least flag the low quality material. What is described here looks like trying to pass the buck to the customer.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771706#Comment_121771706

As a percentage of the overall cost of a house build, it isn’t that much.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768400#Comment_121768400

What type of sealant would you have wanted them to use on the tiles?

Dtoffee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058336062/builder-cut-corners

Did you get a 'Certificate of Compliance' ? it may not help you in the issues you mention, but it is something that anyone working with builders should demand as it protects you going forward. No doubt someone will be able to explain this better.

https://www.lawsociety.ie/Solicitors/knowledge-base/Practice-Notes/Certificates-of-compliance-with-Building-Regulations

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771733#Comment_121771733

Ok. I did not realise it would be that low. I still say if employing a good builder it would be a discretionary spend, not essential to ensure build finish was to high standards. Especially things like gutter. If these are poor, I wonder what else is substandard in the build.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768357#Comment_121768357

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768430#Comment_121768430

Jesus not every post on here that doesn't make absolute perfect sense is a windup. People often post on boards BECAUSE they've found themselves in a messy situation. In the past I've worked with builders who I wouldn't trust with Lego, and secondary school teachers who ran their self-builds like a prison and got total respect from tradesmen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771681#Comment_121771681

Is this supposed to be some kind of gotcha? Over Christmas and New Year, in bad weather, on short days. OP didn't say they spent 160 man hours on it.

This type of crap totally ruins what could otherwise be helpful discussions for people on this site.

OP, if they've paid the builder already, they're not going to get very far. No offence, but as the saying goes, a little knowledge can be dangerous. Having some background in construction (or anything else for that matter) can give you a false sense of security that you will be a good supervisor, when in fact you subconsciously focus on areas which you're knowledgeable on or prefer.

In my own job (where I supervise industrial equipment), I've been caught out more by stuff I thought I knew backwards, than stuff I hadn't a clue about but was forced to research.

As to what do do next, I hate to recommend letting the builder away with crappy work, but if the only issue is a wobbly patio and a few screws in a gutter, get them fixed yourself, and eliminate the stress of fighting with with builder.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771945#Comment_121771945

Tbf it does if someone says they have experience in the trade, placed themselves into project managing the building works and then proceeds to the builder used the wrong sealant to stick down the patio tiles.

Some of it can't be true at all. So if people open with a more truthful post they may get more receptive legitimate feedback.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770509#Comment_121770509

He said when he walked on the patio he could see the tiles were loose.

Which means he didn't walk on the patio after it was build, or when doing the snagging list, or when doing the final handover.

What level of supervision doesn't even walk around the place?

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772047#Comment_121772047

It could be a simple misunderstanding, as the OP says "sealant into" which IMO could be either that they believe that the patio tiles didn't have a waterproof sealant applied after laying, and this has cause them to allow water pass through and undermine whatever they are laid on top of, or that there wasn't enough Water Reducer (plasticiser) mixed into a concrete bed, which has reduced its strength. I've head builders call plasticiser "sealant".

I've no idea on the above, just a theory, but I seriously doubt that they think the paving slabs are head down with bathroom silicone.