Upgrading Tails

NickNickleby

Greetings

Relative had a smart meter installed. All ok, except installing technician issued a kind of "Warning Notice" to say the tails should be upgraded, but it wasn't something requiring to be notified to Electric Ireland. Just sort of "get that done sooner rather than later".

Is it simply a case of getting an electrician to rip out the old tails and replace them, or does it then need certification? If certification is required, does that mean the whole installation needs to be gone over and old fashioned (eg red/black cables) replaced? Or simply check and certify the fuseboard ?

Thanks in advance

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058335478/upgrading-tails

New mains cables need to be installed along with upgraded earthing and earth rod. The whole house has to be tested and certified.a Cert 1 has to be issued to esbn to facilitate connection to new meter. If any issues are discovered during testing then it may not pass this process

L1011

Had it done to my parents house recently enough, late 80s wiring - new consumer unit (fuseboard) was required along with the earthing etc mentioned.

ESBN - or at least my local lads - need the electrician present when doing the swap; and in both my own house (full rewire) and my parents case, turned up entirely unannounced the first time before getting rescheduled to a time the electrician could be there.

In both cases we also had the MIC increased to.... something (I can't remember what either house was or now is) and an 80A networks fuse installed. It isn't free.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747699#Comment_121747699

Ouch, sounds like this might be painful. Thanks for the info.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747737#Comment_121747737

Tnanks for the info. I particularly liked your last line. I suspect this will be something of an understatement.🤣

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747783#Comment_121747783

Checked there and I paid €415 to ESBN to have the meter moved (was replaced with a smart meter at the same time, but moved about 80cm away); new network fuse and cutout and the MIC change. I paid the sparks €10800 for everything else!

That did include ethernet and TV coaxial wiring, spare circuits for a potential future extension (coiled up under the kitchen floor - will save the hall floor at least), wiring for a car charger and wired smoke alarms so not just a basic rewire; plus reinstatement plastering for channelling.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121747816#Comment_121747816

Sorry for the delayed response.

Thanks for the additional information. That's eye watering alright. 😂

Buffman

I'm guessing they still went ahead and swapped the meter anyway?

Pity the new tails weren't ready to go as you potentially could have gotten them swapped without paying the ESBN fee as they were wiring the new meter in anyway.

NickNickleby

That's a good point. Unfortunately, the relative in question was completely oblivious to the situation, so couldn't have been prepared as you suggest.

Now it's electricians, certificates etc etc to sort it out. Not to mention the likely upheaval in getting wiring sorted, which is probably more daunting than the expense.

Amazingly, in the almost 60 years since the house was built, it hasn't burned down once.

However, daughter's friend's house burned down one Christmas Day, and the fire started in the fusebox in the hall. Tails????? Never heard one way or the other. Fortunately no one hurt, which is way more important.

Edit to say: I completely understand why standards exist, my tongue in cheek remark above is simply that - tongue in cheek.

Antenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761678#Comment_121761678

Presumably they had an electric cooker, on for a long period of time, cooking the Christmas dinner? Loose connections (or loose fuse) overheating probably and combined with a prolonged heavy load.

No I have never heard of old 6mm sq tails going on fire in a domestic residence.

...Ghost...

Save me from making a new thread. Does the RECI contact ESBN to connect the new tails. or the customer? Does ESBN actually make the physical connection to the meter?

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768078#Comment_121768078

The rec issues a certificate to safe electric who pass it on to esbn. Esbn invoice the customer (€180) and when they receive payment they schedule an engineer to call and connect the cables into the meter. The rec has to return then to do some post connection testing.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768450#Comment_121768450

Thanks. Does the rec return after the esbn connect tails, or do they have to be there same time?

NickNickleby

Hello everyone, OP here with another thought regarding this.

In this scenario, the Consumer Unit is in the same big white box as the newly installed meter. Nothing was said about that. However, will it be permissible to connect the new tails to the Consumer Unit in situ, or must they be in separate boxes?

Thanks in advance.

Doolittle51

Is there any chance they fitted an isolator downstream of the meter? This would mean the tails can be changed without getting ESBN involved. Post a picture if you're unsure, so we can have a gawk

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797914#Comment_121797914

Do you mean a new main board was fitted in meter cabinet for car charging?

That shouldn't be in the cabinet. Probably best fire up a pic.

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121797914#Comment_121797914

Big white box??

do you mean they were enclosed in a timber framed cabinet?

tomhammer..

I'm misunderstanding anyhow. He didn't mention car charging or new board.

NickNickleby

Sorry folks for my lack of clarity.

There's a white cabinet in the porch. Its there since the house was built. It contains the meter AND the Consumer Unit, (which replaced the original fuse board which was those old screw in ceramic fuses). This was done about 20 years ago.

Photo to follow....

NickNickleby

I've used my paranoia pen to hide anything that might identifying of the property (I hope).

The consumer unit door has a label identifying the installation company who installed it in Dec 2000. I believe the tails are the coloured wires hiding behind the thick ESB cables. So, my question is : will the ESB insist on moving that consumer unit before reconnecting it to the network with new tails?

I ask this because a neighbour of mine had an identical scenario to this, and one day out of the blue, an ESB guy arrived to examine the box. Upon seeing the setup he (allegedly) became quite irate with the homeowner and demanded to know who had put a consumer unit in a meter box. This occurred during the Smart Meter installation programme. Not being an electrician, the neighbour hadn't a clue what the guy was talking about, so eventually he left with nothing to show for his visit. Subsequently, a Smart Meter was installed and no comment whatsoever about the 'rogue' consumer unit.

So, as you can see above, a Smart Meter was installed and while no mention was made about the consumer unit, a sheet of paper was given warning that the tails needed upgrading. So, that's the history to the original question.

ps, as this isn't my installation, if anyone can see any identifying info in the photo, can you tell me so that I can delete the photo.

Thanks again

tomhammer..

Those tails wouldn't be an urgent issue

Is that board in the outdoor meter cabinet

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799816#Comment_121799816

Unfortunately no rec will upgrade the tails and certify this installation as the distribution board is not permitted inside the meter cabinet

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799859#Comment_121799859

Thanks for your input.

Yes, it's actually outside the front door. It's the only electrical box in the property.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121799975#Comment_121799975

Thanks for that info.

Sounds like install a new consumer unit somewhere , then presumably wire everything back to that - I'd imagine there's no way of pulling back the existing cables, thus requiring a rewire.

I'll let someone else tell him. Nah, I'll give him an idea of his predicament and point him at an electrician.

This is after a recent redecoration upstairs and downstairs, solid floors and dry lining. :-(

Thanks everyone for the inputs.

blackbox

What's the problem with the old tails? is it just that they're the old colours?

If that's all that's "wrong" with them I wouldn't worry about it.

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800140#Comment_121800140

Ooh, perhaps a glimmer of hope!

I'll get him to find the piece of paper and see. But I'm pretty sure he said at the time it was the cable size.

Thanks for your input.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800140#Comment_121800140

Size

But ya it's not a major predicament at all

Can't tell if they're 6 or 10 . Even at 6 there's unlikely to be any issue

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800203#Comment_121800203

I’d beg to differ on that. Especially if there’s an instant shower. Can’t make out that top right breaker. Possibly an added shower on the original rcd(should be on separate rcbo if it is). Definitely undersized neutral/earth link too.

tomhammer..

Ya think

Those short bits of wire

Doolittle51

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800365#Comment_121800365

Are you implying that it's ok to have undersized tails because they are short? If so, you haven't a clue, so please don't give advice to people about ignoring potentially dangerous electrical issues.

Apologies if that's not what you meant, but I don't know what else you could be referring to.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800448#Comment_121800448

Ya sure

You're the danger police .

tomhammer..

They should be sized correctly and changed at some stage

The reality is nothing will happen in the meantime assuming they're terminated correctly both ends

Voltage drop is also not an issue

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800365#Comment_121800365

esbn are issuing a warning letter to the op for a very valid reason

if these “short bits of wire “are overloaded then there’s a potential hazard

the op should try and resolve these issues

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121801082#Comment_121801082

Yes they should be resolved

It's quite common on older works for short bits of 6 to connect meter to main board

NickNickleby

Hello Everyone.

Thank you all for your very informative posts.

The warning notice hasn't been found yet, but whatever... when I put the matter to the injured party and they ask "Why?" , I'll be able to give a reasoned argument. I've another question to ask, hopefully you're not fed up with me yet.😁

In this scenario, we're going to install a second cabinet in the porch and put a lovely new consumer unit in it. Of course now the house wiring has to be connected to it. For now, just to establish the principle, I'll just refer to an existing ring-main. The cables come in from the existing consumer unit at a height of about 1.5m. Leg 'A' then travels up the wall into the box room and into the first socket on the ring. From there its daisy chained round the bedrooms then down a wall into the dining room into a socket and the ring continues round the downstairs under the nice new floors, out into the hall and up the wall via the last socket. Then it runs alongside Leg 'A' and goes out to the MCB.

A thought occurs to me that might save the house from destruction. Could this ring be left in situ, but just disconnect the two last pieces and run two new pieces from the first and last fairly easily accessible sockets? The only damage incurred would be the wall in the hall, up and down which the new ends would have to be buried, then fed out into the new consumer unit. What do you think?

Thanks in advance, for your patience and also for all your very valuable advice which is much appreciated.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802111#Comment_121802111

Relocating board and upgrading tails etc probably means a rewire

Discussion on bits of circuit wiring probably irrelevant

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802170#Comment_121802170

Thanks for your info, tomhammer.

I was afraid that might be the case. It'll be hard to convince someone to rip up their floors etc, even with the rationale being explained to them.

JohnC.

Should the tails have been upgraded when the smart meter was installed? Seems like both the OP and myself had smart meters installed without this happening. But SEAI say

"ESBN are currently rolling out smart meters in homes across Ireland. As part of this roll out, if they encounter under-sized meter tails on the grid side, they will upgrade the meter tails up to the new standard of 16mm at no cost."

https://www.seai.ie/blog/meter-tails-domestic/

I'm a little confused by all this.

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817148#Comment_121817148

That’s on the grid side (esbn)

the consumer side (home)is the customer responsibility. It’s explained in the article

Doolittle51

It says "on the grid side"

That means the tails from the main ESB fuse to the meter. Anything downstream of the meter is your responsibility, including the tails from the meter to your consumer unit.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121817239#Comment_121817239

Downstream of Meter or ESBN isolator if fitted