What is considered discrimination?

Ginger83

For example to serve one customer but not another?

What is considered discrimination?

If someone visited a restaurant and were refused access to a disabled toilet with the reason given its not working. Would this be considered as such that one person is being treated differently to another by not offering the same services and facilities as every other customer?

3DataModem

IANAL

However

• a toilet being occasionally out of order on a night, denying an individual access, is probably not discrimination.
• a toilet being out of order every night from about 7pm in a bar because the staff "can't be arsed cleaning it because nobody uses it" is more likely to be discrimination.

phildub

If there is another restroom that a disabled person cannot use then that is indirect discrimination. I'm sure you can Google the definition of discrimination yourself but it has to be based on one of the grounds, disability being one of them. It would be the same if the woman's restroom was out of order and they were not permitted to use the men's, this is discrimination on gender grounds.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739583#Comment_121739583

What if other restrooms are available but cannot be accessed due to door widths and space etc?

Every customer in the restaurant has access to toilet facilities except persons with disabilities.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741201#Comment_121741201

Toilets can and do go out of order.

Do you want them to close the whole restaurant for the night because the disabled toilet is out of service?

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741211#Comment_121741211

That wouldn't be realistic although it would depend how long a toilet is inaccessible.

What if it were all toilets? Should a restaurant close then?

Allinall

IANAL

In my view, if all toilets are out of action the restaurant must close.

If just the disabled toilet is out of action then it should be brought to the attention of all customers as they come in.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741485#Comment_121741485

I would have thought the same and a sign on the front door and toilet door.

There's not much point selling and serving a meal to someone and not allow them access to a toilet.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741228#Comment_121741228

Of course a restaurant would close if all the toilets were out of order for the evening. Any venue would.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743504#Comment_121743504

So a restaurant should close if they can't offer toilet facilities to everyone but it's acceptable for one sector of society? Yes?

Dav010

Are you looking for compensation, or to punish the restaurant because their disabled facilities developed a fault?

It seems extreme if you are, bathroom facilities sometimes malfunction, occasionally due to misuse. It happens, haven’t you ever had to call a plumber or electrician to your home? Added to that, tradespeople are hard to get at the moment.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744828#Comment_121744828

Did you not read the first response to the OP?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744828#Comment_121744828

IANAL either, but if I may be flippant in the Legal forum - I'd have thought that from a discrimination point of view, a restaurant would be perfectly fine to open if all toilets are out or order.

That way, it would be the same for everybody, so nobody would be discriminated against....

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121744828#Comment_121744828

Yes, 100%. If a toilet in a restaurant isn't working but another one is, then the working one can become unisex. It's fairly straightforward.

If the disabled toilet isn't working then disabled people still have the option of trying to use one of the regular toilets. They're still being offered the same service as everyone else, it's not discrimination.

Rather than shooting down everyone else's opinions, what are yours?

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765422#Comment_121765422

Neither. I am just wondering from an obligation point of view.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765569#Comment_121765569

Yes I read the first opinion

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767516#Comment_121767516

I am not of a legal background myself but I would have thought that any premises offering dine in food should have to provide toilet facilities.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121741211#Comment_121741211

The more likely scenario here is that the disabled loo is being used for storage of extra chairs or bulk food or whatever. So they just can't be arsed.

OP, IANAL, but it does sound like discrimination to me. You could take an Equal Status case to the WRC on that basis.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767862#Comment_121767862

Of course. I did say I was being flippant, and I did say from a purely discrimination point of view.

Am sure that from other points of view re. other legal obligations, they need to provide toilets all right.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743504#Comment_121743504

I know from experience that aint true. Publicans can be hungry bstards and I have been made serve on through major roof leaks, complete power failures and all toilets backing up right into the main bar area and out of order.

Mrs OBumble

Discrimination (on one of the nine protected grounds) is illegal, and shouldn't happen.

So is parking in certain spots without a permit, speeding, and not sending your kids to school on a day when the school is open and they aren't sick.

But sometimes it happens. The disabled toilet breaks, so you cannot offer wheelchair uses an accessible toilet. You forget to buy a parking permit, travel 2km/h over the limit, and your kid is being picked on so you cheer them up with a trip somewhere fun on a school day.

All wrong things to do. But likely you won't get in trouble for any of them, if they don't happen too often, and no one dies.

But is it discrimination if it normally doesn't happen that way?

And how can it be OK for a restaurant (or nail salon or tattoo parlour, to name some others in my neighbourhood) to operate on the 1st floor or a building which has no lift - surely that systemically discriminates against people with mobility-disabilities?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768537#Comment_121768537

Are they using the disabled loo for storage?

Seems like you are making up your own story.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768537#Comment_121768537

on what evidence do you base your assertion that the disabled loo is being used for storage?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743504#Comment_121743504

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767862#Comment_121767862

I know of some resturants with no tiolet facilities, admitidlly most were in Shopping centres.

IANAL, so don't know the legal or planning requirments for resturants/coffee shops etc.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768769#Comment_121768769

It's not an assertion. It's a more likely scenario, based on decades of experience in checking the suitability of disabled bathrooms for a family member.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768758#Comment_121768758

Just like you made up your story about "malfunction, occasionally due to misuse"?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768707#Comment_121768707

Read up on the concept of reasonable accommodation in discrimination claims.

Peregrinus

We're just looking here at the equality legislation. We ignore planning rules, licensing rules, food service rules etc about the provision of toilets in a restaurant, which is a whole different issue.

The basic rule in the Equal Status Act is that it's discrimination on the grounds of disability if there is . . .

"a refusal or failure by the provider of a service to do all that is reasonable to accommodate the needs of a person with a disability by providing special treatment or facilities, if without such special treatment or facilities it would be impossible or unduly difficult for the person to avail himself or herself of the service."

So, if the disabled toilet is out of action for any reason, you need to do "all that is reasonable" to get it back into action. What would you do if the regular toilet were out of action? Call a plumber? Well, do that, but for the disabled toilet. In the meantime, do "all that is reasonable" to enable customers with a disability to use the regular toilet. Depending on the circumstances, there may not be much that can reasonably be done to make the regular toilet more accessible but, whatever there is, do it.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121800997#Comment_121800997

Personally, I have come to the opinion that any form of tiolet apartheid is wrong. All tiolets should be available/suitable/accessable to all people. I know it's a aspiration that will never come to pass, but i can hope.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802108#Comment_121802108

If every single toilet had to be an individual cubicle with all the extra space needed to make it accessible for people with disabilities, then that would have a hell of an impact on the length of the queues for the gents' during half-time at a big match in the Aviva Stadium or Croke Park.......!

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121802108#Comment_121802108

Why do you hate disabled people? 😉

The equal status legislation takes the exact opposite course, expressly imposing an obligation to provide special facilities for disabled people so that they can avail of the services you offer. A requirement to make all the facilities disabled friendly goes much further than is needed (disabled people don't need all the facilities to be accessible; they just need there to be accessible facilities) and costs much more (as Uncle Pierre points out) and, the more costly you make it to provide for disabled people, the less provision there will be.

If you're willing to mandate the expenditure of that amount of money on accommodating disabled people, maybe ask them if the best way to spend it is by providing more disabled toilets than are needed.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805658#Comment_121805658

Because it'svnot only about disability.

Many people appreciate the extra spacec ( obese, parents who have small children with them, tourists with luggage, etc)

And in our current society, gendered toilets are just inviting activists to make trouble.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121805886#Comment_121805886

Actually, for the smaller "outlet", gender and ability nuetral tiolets might save space and costs.

One or toilet swhich are fully accessable and have the usual baby changing facilities won't take that much extra space that seperate facilities for disability and not disability customers.