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Why the soul is more important than the flesh.

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  • 03-02-2024 1:17pm
    #1
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭


    Imaging your child was dying and there was nothing you could do to save them, other than create a clone. Would the clone be the same as the child you lost? In a bodily sense, yes. The clone would be an exact replica, with an identical DNA, personality, appearance, abilities and so on. But, suppose you told your child you were going to clone him/her before they died. How would the child feel about that? First, let`s assume the child had accepted their impending death, what would they think of being cloned. Probably they would feel happy that a clone of them would go on to live a full life, have kids of their own etc. But those children would be their clone`s children, which is the same as the dying child having offspring exept for one thing, the clone would have a different soul to the child that was dying. So would the souls of the offspring of the clone be different to the souls of the children of the dying child, were he/her to live?

    A soul is different to a physical body. A soul concerns itself with moral dilemmas, and it is influenced by experience. Our will is our own and what we choose is not pre-determined. In short, would a bodily clone have a soul which is an exact spiritual clone? And, if so, would it remain identical or change as the child grows?



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    #2
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    No



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    #3
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334478/why-the-soul-is-more-important-than-the-flesh

    It would eventually turn on you



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    #4
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058334478/why-the-soul-is-more-important-than-the-flesh

    Your deep into the realms of science fiction here, on a topic that's been covered regularly by sci-fi authors since the early 60s. Way station is the first that comes to mind, We Are Legion (We Are Bob) is more recent and a barrel of laughs. If you could clone someone, including their thoughts and experiences up to time of cloning, ensoulment is the least of your concerns.



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    #5
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    Obviously a clone would have to be born again in the physical world, so it would have no memories but it's own. The scenarios and questions were hypothetical of course.

    The science bit was not the issue. Cloning is possible. Cloning humans is not legal but that would only matter if it was not hypothetical.



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    #6
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738157#Comment_121738157

    Cloning to the extent of making a copy of a person which includes their memories is not possible nor even close to possible. Personally, I very much doubt it will every be possible but who knows. Even physical cloning to reproduce a body at a given stage of development such as to be identical to a current body is not possible. Maybe worth noting that if it were, and you cloned a person dying of cancer, the clone would also be dying of cancer. Just saying...



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    #7
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Slightly different angle on this but if a body is cremated after death hoe does that fit into the Christian ideology that the soul rises from the body when the body has been destroyed?



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    #8
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738157#Comment_121738157

    If you allow for a new clone to be born again from an embryo, and you believe in the Christian concept of ensoulment, the clone would have a soul in exactly the same way two identical twins have independent souls.



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    #9
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭victor8600


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738782#Comment_121738782

    Exactly, a clone is just a different human being. Now if we could create a copy of a person exactly, with all their thoughts end memories, that would be something more profound. Beside the question of who has a soul and who has not, there are other questions -- who has the original person's identity, and all other rights that come with it?



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    #10
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738723#Comment_121738723

    I meant cloning in the scientifically possible way. A single cell embryo.



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    #11
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738782#Comment_121738782

    Yes. Did I say anything to the contrary?



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    #12
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738743#Comment_121738743

    The body is not destroyed between the death and the cremation. Even if a person dies by being shoved into a cremation furnace, the death would happen before the cremation could be complete. In fact, even if the person was sitting on an atomic bomb and died in the subsequent explosion, the soul would no doubt depart the body at the moment of death.



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    #13
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121742140#Comment_121742140

    Yes.

    You said "The clone would be an exact replica, with an identical DNA, personality, appearance, abilities and so on." Clones taken from embryos will not have identical personalities or abilities any more than identical twins do. While genetics influence personality and ability, so does lived experience. No two people can have an identical lived experience thus clones would not have identical personality, appearance and abilities and would develop as unique individuals.

    Going back to your opening post of the clone being created as a substitute for a dying child, their lived experience would be dramatically different from the first child (age, attitude of parents, etc...). They would in no way be the same person. The clone you allude to in your opening post is hence the stuff of science fiction.



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    #14
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121743211#Comment_121743211

    Obviously the clone's appearance would be identical unless you decide to give it a funny haircut and a bunch of tattoos when it is older. And yes you could decide to raise the clone the opposite to the way you raised the original but that would undermine the purpose in terms of personality and abilities.

    Identical twins often exhibit personalities and abilities that are remarkably similar. Everyone has a few anecdotes of identical twins speaking in tandem, standing in for each other as so on



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