Loan player debacle

DARK-KNIGHT

Hi folks

My son plays football for a team in Kildare and is a paying member for that club

He is hurling with another club as a loan player, my question is should the loan club be charging a second membership

Fees are very high also at 3 times his home clubs fees

arctictree

My son has done the same in Wicklow for years. Has never paid membership for the hurling club. His home club membership covers insurance etc once the appropriate permission process has been followed.

DARK-KNIGHT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121701957#Comment_121701957

165 euro loan player fee or membership aswell as the normal club fees

Just so very wrong and the threat of no hurling if you don't pay up

Several kids all with fees like that aswell

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702479#Comment_121702479

I’d be making the club he’s loaned to pay the fee

DARK-KNIGHT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121702564#Comment_121702564

The club he is loaned to are looking for the 165 fee

Not his regular team

DARK-KNIGHT

Basically charging full membership of second club even though he is a loan player

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703335#Comment_121703335

That’s what I’m saying. They should cover the fee themselves.

DARK-KNIGHT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121703372#Comment_121703372

They are saying it is club policy

Several people not happy in relation to this

Like if child gets injured playing for loan club we have to go to parent club to sort it out

Stationmaster

Devils advocate here - are the loan club not providing facilities, coaching resources etc as well though and need the funds from each member/player just like any other club?

DARK-KNIGHT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704302#Comment_121704302

Oh they are of course

And I'll be honest have no issue contributing to the club

But full membership price for a player to come in is unnecessary imo

Anyways just really looking for opinions as others are talking about it

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704302#Comment_121704302

This is the core of the issue. Most would be surprised at how little of a club membership fee goes on player registration and the Player Injury Fund (commonly referred to as "player insurance") - by far the bulk of the membership fee goes towards the cost of providing and maintaining facilities for all players in the club that year, whether they're the club's own players or "on loan".

So to me, it's not unreasonable for the "loan" club to ask for a contribution as well.

Having said that, there seems to a significant difference in the membership rates at both clubs, if the "loan" club rate of €165 is approx. three times that of the "home" club.

OP - do you happen to know if your "home" club is relatively cheap compared to others in the area, or is the "loan" club relatively expensive?

DARK-KNIGHT

All clubs in locality are about 40 to 50 euro per year

The loan club is very expensive in fairness

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706546#Comment_121706546

Around €50 would be normal here in Wexford for underage players too, so your "loan" club's €165 certainly seems expensive.

Having said that, your son is a de factor member of that club for the year if he's playing with them, and essentially, there's nothing wrong in principle or in rule with them therefore asking for their usual membership fee. It's just unfortunate for you that their fee is so high compared to others.

Can I ask you to clarify something - why is your son playing there? Is it that your own club just doesn't have the numbers for a hurling team at that age grade this year and so some have gone to other clubs under the Isolated Players rule (i.e. "loan players"), or does your club not offer hurling at all?

DARK-KNIGHT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706579#Comment_121706579

No hurling in the majority of clubs in local area

csirl

Why jpin "on loan"? Why not join as a nornal player and pay only one fee? Its underage sport - players are not "under contract" - can always re-join his original club if they have a suitable team.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121706579#Comment_121706579

South Wexford myself and it's €200 for myself, the wife and child to be fully paid up members as well as entry into the county draw. Just the child on his own is €60 I think but not sure.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707323#Comment_121707323

Well, there's the real core of it.

If there's no hurling at all in your own club, then he's not joining the other club as a "loan" player after all, and would instead be joining it as an ordinary member of that club too. Basically -

• Club A plays football only
• Club B, nearby, plays football and hurling

Somebody from Club A who also wants to play hurling can also join Club B, but for hurling only. He must still play football with his own club, unless he has one of the connections to Club B that would allow a full transfer there (e.g. family moves to live in Club B catchment area, or he attends school there).

And since that player is then joining two clubs, he's subject to two club membership fees.

Maybe worth pointing out that in general, the cost of running a club that plays hurling is far higher than the cost of running a football club. If you're not directly involved with a hurling club yourself, even the amount of money spent on sliotars alone would astound you.

Example - my own club spends roughly €4,000 per year on sliotars. A further €1,000 or so on subsidising the cost of hurls (we buy them from a local maker, and if a club member of any age wants a new hurl or needs to replace a broken one, we sell them one for less than the price we've paid for it).

Also bear in mind that if it's a dual club, they've to pay twice as much into the Player Injury Scheme (i.e. "player insurance") as a single-code club.

Only solution I'd see here would be for Club B to introduce a reduced rate for footballers from other clubs who join them to play hurling only, but that'd be a matter for Club B themselves. And it could then lead to other issues if any of their own players only wanted to play hurling but not football - i.e. "how come the lad from the next village only has to pay x amount to just play hurling with us, but I've to pay more?"

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121707488#Comment_121707488

Allowing for how the County Draw is €50, that'd be €150 for membership itself - which happens to be exactly the same as for ourselves. Here, it's €50 for a non-playing adult, and €50 for an underage player aged from 10 to 18.

The €165 in Kildare for an underage player does seems expensive by comparison, but then again, underage membership in some of the Dublin clubs can cost €250 per year, so maybe it's generally more expensive in some of the surrounding counties too.

Edit - have actually just done a quick search for underage membership rates in Kildare clubs that have membership details on their websites. This is not an exhaustive list, but it does paint a certain picture:

• Leixlip €140
• Naas €140
• Clane €150
• Kilcock €130
• Maynooth €150
• Confey €95

caddy16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718166#Comment_121718166

Not necessarily true. In this situation you're not joining 2 clubs. You're playing for the other club, as an isolated player. Different counties have different criteria around this. However, from a GAA perspective membership only has to be paid to the home club and you're covered under the player injury fund. In fact if you get injured with the 2nd club, claims still have to be submitted through your home club.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718230#Comment_121718230

In a situation like this, you actually are joining two clubs - one to play football, and one to play hurling.

Also, you're confusing the annual player registration fee and the individual's contribution to the Player Injury Scheme (commonly called "player insurance") with the actual club membership. In fairness, it's a common mistake, since they're always bundled up together in just one figure for the sake of handiness in any one club.

Annual player registration fee is a nominal amount - I think it's €2 per player. This is what the GAA rule says only has to be paid once (to the "home" club). Club membership is a different matter.

A club's contribution to the Player Injury Scheme is €200 for an underage team up to U18. Say there are 20 players with that team - that would be €10 each.

Correct that in a case like this, your claim would still be dealt with by your "home" club, but your so-called "loan" club still has to pay that €200 fee to have a hurling team for you to play with in the first place.

The remainder of a club's membership fee (€153 out of €165 in this case) is for general club running costs. It costs money to run the club that you want to play hurling with - providing and maintaining facilities, admin costs, entry fees for the competitions you'll be playing in, and all the way down to washing jerseys and paying referees and all sorts of other general running costs.

If you want to play with a club, you should be making a contribution towards what it costs that club to provide the facilities and teams that are needed to allow you to play. Whether it's the full rate, or a reduced rate for playing just one code there, would be for that club to decide themselves.

windy shepard henderson

happens here a lot in west clare where no hurling teams are , lads that want to go hurling can play with a different club once they are registered with their original club , they are seen as an 'isolated player' so if its the same in kildare he shouldn't have to pay extra

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718449#Comment_121718449

Why shouldn't he?

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718449#Comment_121718449

As the poster above asks, why not?

Say the hurling club has 20 players of its own, and five more from football clubs who come in to hurl with them because there's no hurling offered in their own clubs.

Why should only 20 of the 25 players in the squad be expected to contribute to the costs of running the team, while the other five get to play with them for free?

caddy16

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718350#Comment_121718350

No I'm not confusing anything. From a GAA perspective you have to be a registered member of a club to play. If you play a different code with a 2nd club there is no GAA requirement to pay a separate membership. The 2nd club is entitled to ask for it.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121718688#Comment_121718688

Again, you're correct in principle....but this time I'll say you're conflating certain things, rather than confusing them.

Correct that in a situation like the one outlined here, it's sufficient to register just through the first club. No obligation to register again through the second club, and in fact, attempting to do so could only end up confusing things, if you ended up with a second overall GAA membership number (i.e. 'Foireann Number').

Also correct that there's no GAA requirement to pay a separate membership fee to a second club, as in there's no rule in the Association's Rule Book to say you must do so. But here's the rub: there's no overarching GAA requirement to actually pay a membership fee to the first club either.

The rule is simply that you must be a registered member of the club, and the club must pay your registration fee. There's no obligation on the club itself to charge a membership fee of any sort. Obviously, every club charges membership fees anyway. But let's say a club somewhere had a local JP McManus type, throwing them a million quid every so often - they could decide to waive membership fees altogether since they wouldn't need money that way, and they'd be perfectly entitled to make that decision.

Finally, correct that the second club is entitled to ask for a membership fee - just as the first club is entitled to ask for it as well.

And also, both clubs are entitled to have a club rule that if you don't pay a membership fee, you don't get to play for that club. But any such rules regarding membership fees are club rules. They're not overarching GAA rules.

caddy16

If a lad is living in a parish that has no hurling team, only football, and he wants to play hurling with another parish. Can he join the hurling club directly without being a member of his home parish club.....hope that makes sense!

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121704302#Comment_121704302

To be fair - coaching resources are free, its a volunteer based organisation.

I just say that because occasionally I see parents getting bitchy because Team X is getting extra training sessions on Tuesdays, and Team Y isnt - and we pay our fees so my childs team should be getting the extra sessions too - well in that case pal, come on down and run the extra session.

Anyway - I think overall you are correct.

To OP, bottom line here - your child is playing for two different clubs. Thats why you have to pay two different fees. The issue really here is that the second club is charging so much, and to be fair its expensive for every child there, not just yours. If it was a 50 euro fee then it wouldnt be an issue.

I see where you are coming from - but on the other hand, it would be a bit much to expect the second club take in your child, give them training, matches, access to facilities and for them not to expect a penny for it. Probably a 50% fee would be fair, but its their call at the end of the day.

The whole 'its just so very wrong' shtick is a bit much.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785979#Comment_121785979

It's a good question, and basically it would depend on the county's bye-laws, but I'd expect most or all counties would have a bye-law in place to allow for it. I know that we in Wexford do anyway, although it only very rarely arises, as just about all clubs here are dual.

Basically, what the general Rule Book says is that a player with a single-code club may play the other code with a different club. But obviously for this to happen, the person in your example would have to be registered as a player with his "home" football club anyway, even if he had absolutely no interest in ever actually playing football.

However, the Rule Book also allows that "A County Committee may make alternative arrangements in the interests of the promotion of Hurling/Football, provided that the arrangements have been approved by Central Council", and there's no reason that Central Council wouldn't approve an application to waive the requirement for him to actually be a player of the first club if he has no interest in that first club's code.

An alternative and "local" arrangement, if the home club was willing to do him a favour, would be to register him as a player for football anyway (registration fee is just €2 per player), but not charge him an actual membership fee since he wouldn't be using that club's facilities or other resources in any way.

Edited to add: by the way, important to note that if the player does subsequently develop an interest in football, he must still play it with his "home" club, and not with the other club that he's joined for the purposes of playing hurling (this is assuming that the "other" club is a dual club).

Likewise, if the "other" club happens to be short of players some evening for a football match and ask him to fill in (even if he still doesn't really want to play football!), he'd be playing illegally, as he's allowed be a member of that club for hurling only.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121787016#Comment_121787016

I agree with all you say, but just to point out I took "coaching resources" to mean things like equipment that has to be paid for, rather than paying for people's time. However, if the club is paying for a GPO or similar, then that involves paying for somebody's time anyway.

Overall though, would repeat that OP here definitely seems to be talking about the son joining two different clubs for the sake of the two codes, and therefore should expect to pay two club membership fees. The fact that one of them is higher than most other clubs in the area remains unfortunate for them.