clear felled land

dto001

Hi All,

I've seen a few parcels of land for sale which have have been clear felled. I'm wondering what the requirements for re-planting is? And per acre what is the approximate cost? Is there any grants? and Do I have to replant with the same species?

Cheers

timfromtang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058333524/clear-felled-land

can't help with costs, except to say that there will be site prep costs, perhaps fencing, plants cost from 40c each for the likes of sitka spruce through to 2 euro each for walnut, 2.50 each for Holly, folk will need paying for planting etc etc

If it was forest there is likely a statutory requirement to replant.

You can replant with any species that will both suit the site, and is approved by the foerst service.

hope this helps

tim

timfromtang

I should add that there are many different types of forest you could create, conversion to agroforestry may be possible on suitable sites,.

tim

dto001

Cheers Tim

I'm very curious as to what happens what can be done with this sort of land as I see more and more of it coming up for sale and I doubt many are willing to pay a lot for land then to have to pay a lot to re-plant it again

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121683184#Comment_121683184

Maybe that's the reason a lot of it is coming up for sale. IIRC only the 1st planting gets grants but it has to stay as forestry so if it's not viable for the original person who planted the forest, with the money from grants and felling, to replant how do the subsequent owners make it work?

timfromtang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121683683#Comment_121683683

well, If you are of the opinion that you need a grant to make forestry work, I feel that you may be misinformed!!

yes some of the money for a clearfell should be set aside for reestablishment sure

I despair of the attitude to forestry over here, VISIT FINLAND (unless you're scared of the russians of course)

they manage to make money from their forestry over there where trees grow MUCH more slowly than here and it is integrated into their farming operations.

Forestry ususally pays about 7% over time, a good investment.

As for not viable for the original person !!!!!! Bollo##s, they are selling out of greed and ignorance, keep all the money **** the future **** the land, seems to be the attitude.

CLearfell management is harmful to the land and environment in many of the cases it is used here in Ireland.

AFAIK the initial grant is for the land owner to get over the gap from annual income from the land from farming to sporadic income from forestry.

With continuous cover management, steady income streams are available from the forest, although it does reguire some sophistication from the forest manager.

GRRRUMPY

tim

blue5000

Hello GRRRumpy Tim, do you know if clear felled land can be used for agroforestry on the second rotation? Technically it is still forestry.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720088#Comment_121720088

I have checked this out with the department and it can be used as the replanting obligation for the 2 planting once it is deemed acceptable by the department. The ground type and conditions will basically dictate whether it can be used for agro forestry.

Head Department forestry guy seemed very keen on the idea but it has only ever bee done for ash plantations caught by dieback, no spruce plantation was ever done. The shear cost of digging the pine spruce stumps out on rough ground where the would have been planted would be astronomical, looked into the big hire tractor & stump grinders but the wouldn't work for rough forestry ground where most spruce and pine would be.

amacca

I have seen bits come up with no requirement for replanting

What's the story there? Original owner never availed of grants so can do what they like?

Furze99

Coillte have a statutory obligation to replant after clear fell. I notice they don't always do this, particularly on steep or difficult ground. Original work was all by hand, often to create local employment and mustn't be viable now to plant again. Either they get a derogation in these circumstances or it's ignored as they are effectively the state?

timfromtang

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720088#Comment_121720088

I'm only grumpy because i hurt myself,

whilst I have no knowledge or ability to predict what the "department" will have to say about anything these days...

I do think I know is....

that the right tree on the right site with the right market available etc and managed properly pays a good 7% year on year in irish conditions.

there are numerous examples of this and higher yields from spruce

Now convert to agroforestry and grow high value hardwoods for the young lads retirement fund, say cherry on a 55 year rotation, potential value here would depend on a ready healthy market for domestically grown and sawn hardwoods.

Tis said we've a couple of billion euro worth of timber standing to be harvested over the next 10 years or so.

we'd mebbe want to look out for the powerful sawmillers, and timber brokers, that we dont get ripped off here as growers

rumour has it sawmills were closed for an extended spell over the xmas period, caused some hardship and cashflow nightmares for a number of contractors i hear

DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING! Growers too, nobody gets paid until the timber is sold... tis just the way of it,,, some of hte mills wait quite long periods before they pay you too,,, GRRRRR

We Growers hold the cards, Timber is a diminishing rescource in a market that demands MORE and MORE each year. Whilst its standing, gaining increment, its growing in value, mind those high value stems and protect your investment.

best wishes all

tim

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720210#Comment_121720210

I saw stuff in midlands counties advertised as no requirement to replant..its either an ad being economical with the truth (wouldn't be the first time) or its a different category....as I too thought that once it was in forestry it had to go back into it.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121720182#Comment_121720182

Legacy planted stuff from the 80s may not have replanting obligations, I have seen plenty of the type of land around here.

As regards Coillte not replanting ground, you can plant a new area (no previous trees) to the same size as what was originally required for replanting if you choose not to replant hilly rough ground like they did.

That clause above and renewable energy are the only 2 ways you can get out of replanting obligation on forestry.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724421#Comment_121724421

Interesting, thank you. Everyday is a school day.

$kilkenny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121721592#Comment_121721592

The sites for sale in the mid lands are old mature christmas tree plantations I think.

Any Christmas tree plantations that were left far too long and the trees matured to sawlog size are not classed as forestry as they are grown more like an agriculture crop and had no grants or premiums or did not need a license to plant day 1 so when applying for a felling license on these sites it was most likely stipulated that they are christmas tree farms and will not be replanted.

I've done licenses on 2 or 3 small christmas tree sites here in the south east and have managed to turn them back to land and using a felling license to be able to sell the timber.

There are obvious characteristics of christmas tree plantations like closely planted trees and certain species.

ppn

Correct me if I'm wrong but in Finland, forest regulation is actually fit for purpose, e.g. a felling licence can be obtained extremely quickly, possibly in days or weeks afaik. Ireland's forest service is light years behind Europe, where one can wait upto 4.5 years for a felling licence and 6 - 12 months for afforestation or road grants, from personal experience. Without grants, there is zero income for almost 15 years.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121684455#Comment_121684455

You're much too optimistic about replanting returns.

Realistically once a site is clearfelled serious money has to be spent over the first 1 to 5 years and then a wait of a further 15 years when at best approx half the replant spend might be recouped. Who can operate on these horizons. And it's a lot lot worse if they look for hardwoods. Plus the hazards - disease, pasts (how long till the spruce beetle comes) and it's not beyond the possibility that in years the licence conditions will be punitive or felling might be banned for some reason. Think of all the rule changes since 2000 alone. Replanting on reasonable land (ash for example) is a mug's game as with 30% of BISS now payable on scrub on such land income can be drawn right away - with no MONEY OUTGOINGS.

My neighbour clearfelled 10 acre Sitka 9 years ago with an obligation to replant. Many trees had fallen with windblow. He hasn't touched the site since and has no intention of doing so; scrub is getting bigger all the time. He may transfer to son. Interesting to see if obligation to replant lapses with new owner. Would like to see that tested in courts. All through the first planting he reckoned he was 'robbed' by the forestry Company he engaged.

Gman1987

Is their a way to get ex Forestry land back to Agriculture land? Neighbour has a few acres that would have been sown around year 2000. He clear felled the trees circa 4 years ago and was planning to put it back into grass but its idle ever sence. He is looking to sell it now but I dont think he ever got a licence to cut the trees out of it. Could a new owner take it on as clear felled ground and therefore not liable to the replanting obligation? For the current owner what is the fine for removing trees without a licence?

blue5000

Put agro forestry on it at the minimum level.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067347#Comment_122067347

You can theoretically apply to revert it back to forestry but you have to have an equivalent, and acceptable, piece of unplanted land elsewhere that you must plant in lieu.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121724421#Comment_121724421

How definite are you as regards the "legacy" sites?

Since the 2014 Act, you need to get a felling licence and part of those conditions will be that you have to replant the land. That was my understanding. Prior to that there was no replanting obligation. Before then, a person could even just change their mind and take out the trees after a few years, but would have to pay back the grants if they did so. Now, your starting point for cutting any tree is that it is illegal to do so without a licence unless it falls under some allowance/exemption. That's every single tree in the country.

Christmas trees don't count for the purposes of that Act. And I think fruit trees don't either.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122067347#Comment_122067347

The answer to your first question MAY be yes. The obligation to replant may not continue onto the new owner. Legalities may come into it.