How was the Irish legal profession not incensed over the result of this court case?

Sugar_Rush

15 months custodial sentence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/07/26/ex-rte-journalist-who-sexually-assaulted-sleeping-woman-jailed-for-15-months/

I just find it bizarre there's serial offenders with 100's of convictions, that wouldn't get a fraction of this sentence.

To me, this is simply a reflection of our historically conservative and hypocritical Irish culture, to come down so hard for anything pertaining to sexual activity.

Not only that, but subsequent appeals were dismissed.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41019332.html

Sickening.

Peregrinus

We've always regarded sexual assault as a more serious crime than simple assault, meriting more severe sentencing. This isn't a uniquely Irish thing; it's true in most, if not all, countries.

If you're comparing this with the sentences awarded to "serial offenders with 100s of convictions", I suspect you'rer thinking of people with multiple convictions for offences against property, not for assaults. Big category error there.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658388#Comment_121658388

As to the latter, I'm talking about warts on the face of society, those infinitly more destructive than a gainfully employed respected individual, who basically engaged in foreplay whilst in bed with a consenting partner.

I just can't stomach that, 15 months.

I can't help but wonder if it were a male judge presiding, how different the result would have been.

manonboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658411#Comment_121658411

To be fair to the sentence given, It wasnt consensual at all. The woman was literally asleep.

To note though, I completely agree with you. I think it was not sexual assault. I think its a form of intimate touch designed to initiate sex. The line here between cuddling + intimate touching, and what i consider sexual assault is huge. I DONT cuddle my friends when we are sleeping next to each other, however i DO cuddle all women im sexually involved with when they are asleep. They cuddle me too. That cuddling easily involves placing their hand on my chest, neck, arms and stroking sensually. In reverse, i would absolutely consider it cuddling to cup a womans chest if we are sleeping together. Having an arm hanging over a womans chest without touching her breasts is awkward. Most women deliberately place a persons hand there, as its very 'safe' and full cuddle feeling.

Maybe the stroking during this action was where the line got crossed. Maybe placing a hand and stroking/kneading is the difference. Its hard to say. I absolutely think the vast majority of men would be considered perpetrators of sexual assault by the lines drawn in this court case. I think its sad, and not a good precedent to set for our society. The level of trauma experienced by the victim seems outrageous in description for the action that occurred. Very mountain out of a mole hill type of language being used.

I think the court HAD to find him guilty given the circumstances and definition of consent we are using legally. I think the chap dug himself a hole with naivety in his confession. If he had just said he had his arm wrapped around her, and was waking her up.. it probably would of gone away. Though im sure it was unpleasant for the woman to wake up with someone 'on top' of her. Thats another distinction. 'on top' is very invasive for what could be an initiation of foreplay.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658554#Comment_121658554

I do most of the above, as do most men. I know ms ELM would very much think something was up if the exact sleep form you describe was to not happen! However there's a big big difference between the behavior you describe above , which is indeed normal and expected by most women in an LTR, and the quoted behavior in the case at hand which is for sure abusive IMO.

It's the hookup nature of the relationship, and the climbing on top of an asleep woman that makes me feel that way. There's a lot of trust built up in a long term relationship and while some women would welcome it you have no way of knowing and thus should simply read the room better and not do it. I'm no prude and have had plenty of one night/hookup "intimacy" in my younger days but I was never abusive.

"The woman then fell asleep and woke later to find Ó Leidhin on top her of her and groping her breasts. She said she told him to stop and get off her. He did stop and told her: “Sorry, I’m horny".

The following July, Ó Leidhin met gardaí and said that after falling asleep together he had woken up and started to kiss the woman and got on top of her. He said he had tried to wake her up and when she did wake up, she was annoyed at what he was doing while she was still asleep.

Ó Leidhin told gardaí he told her that they had engaged in sexual foreplay and that he had been trying to wake the woman to continue “fooling around”."

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658554#Comment_121658554

I absolutely think the vast majority of men would be considered perpetrators of sexual assault by the lines drawn in this court case. I think its sad, and not a good precedent to set for our society. The level of trauma experienced by the victim seems outrageous in description for the action that occurred.

Without a doubt, this is what it seems to hinge around.

I also can't quite visualize how one could be "groping her breasts" whilst being "on top of" her..... not to turn conversation to too lurid of details but, again it kinds of hazes the idea of what "on top of" actually constituted in this situation.

Based on the timeline of the complainants reporting, it would seem very possible she experienced some sideways turns in her own life, and has attributed them to some random act of intimacy experienced some time prior, a supposed "trauma".

And the justice system has seen fit to validate her position.

And yes, let's face it. That's what really jarring. We've all been there. In fact let's face it, as a means to initiate (and that's what it's known as, "initiation"), further sexual engagement with partners, what he did wasn't the least bit excessive.

For comparison, if this happened in a country like the Netherlands, no part of me believe this wouldn't have been laughed out of court.

Which comes back again to the conventional "Irish" positions pertaining to matters of sex and sexuality. Hyper conservative and hyper hypocritical, the most obscene part of our culture (ironic as obscenity is supposedly what that attitude is designed to condemn).

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058332799/how-was-the-irish-legal-profession-not-incensed-over-the-result-of-this-court-case

I know the word sex can be a distraction.... but you left out the bit where you explain why you thing the legal profession in particular should be incensed..... Society, not the legal profession, decides the weight they place on the various types of crime and are pretty quick to let their elected representatives know when a change is required. If you don't agree with it then get out and try and convince the voters to do otherwise.

And if you try and read the article again, pretending it relates to a different crime you might understand why the appeals were rightly rejected.

If the court accepted the idea that our previous consent implied future consent, then you'd have all kinds of silly business going on.... you authorised someone to charge your credit card last years so it is ok for the business to do the same this year, you ordered the Beno Annual for the last three years so you are now on the hook with the newsagent for this years one as well and so on

Furthermore the legal team tried to retry the case using a new defence in the appeal and that was never going to fly. The judge used the word "novel" to describe a dumb move on the part of the legal team - most likely it was the client the came up with and insisted on this "novel" approach.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658411#Comment_121658411

Is the distinction here basically between "people who are like me, committing crime that I could see myself committing" on the one hand, and "people who are not like me, committing crimes that I am unlikely to commit" on the other hand?

Peregrinus

For comparison, if this happened in a country like the Netherlands, no part of me believe this wouldn't have been laughed out of court.

Right now, this case would not have been brought in the Netherlands, because the offence of sexual assault requires either the use of force or the threat of force. As you can imagine, this narrow definition has been much criticised in the Netherlands.

But, also right now, there's a Bill before the Netherlands Parliament to alter the definition of sexual assault, so that any sexual contact without consent is assault, specifically including a case where the victim is unconscious. This case would seem to come clearly within it. The penalty for such an assault will be imprisonment for up to six years.

In the UK this would be charged as sexual assault under the Sexual Offences Act 1992 section 3. The maximum penalty is 10 years. Under the published sentencing guidelines, the range of sentences typically given varies from a low of a community order to a high of 7 years imprisonment, depending on the circumstances. In this case the fact that the victim had drink taken would be an aggravating factor, as would (if it the case - it's not clear from the report) that the assault involved touching her naked breasts. Those two factors, under the UK sentencing guidelines, would result in a "starting point" sentence of 24 months, adjusted up or down by reference to other factors and circumstances to a low of 12 months or a high of 4 years.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658411#Comment_121658411

You can't consent if you're asleep.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658730#Comment_121658730

And yes, let's face it. That's what really jarring. We've all been there.

We really haven’t, all been there, but that you have been there, explains somewhat your indignation with the fact that the legal profession aren’t all that concerned when a man who is found guilty of having committed sexual assault, is handed down a 15 month custodial sentence.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658826#Comment_121658826

These are all complexities and what-if's.

The stone cold reality is that a man, in bed with a woman consentingly, woke her up in attempt to initiate some kind of sexual/playful contact after they'd already had sexual/playful contact, and served 15 months in prison subsequently at her behest, as well as having his entire future and career destroyed.

Comparing intimate human contact to charging a credit card really doesn't fly.

Again what are these, issues of semantics or definitions or fundamental lack of basic differential abilities? Does the legal profession as a whole suffer from mental blockades of this nature?

Ironically, the aspect of the trial description that jumps out at me the most, is the fact that the name of the sentencing judge was "Karen".

I must be pardoned for thinking so but, that almost feels intentional to emphasize the unfortunate comic nature of this entire charade.

Sugar_Rush

And get this:

Reading from her victim impact statement, the woman said the assault had left her traumatised and feeling lost in the world. She said she was sexually violated when she was at her most vulnerable.

She said the night of the attack was the last time she would ever go to sleep feeling safe from attack.

She said she replays the assault again and again and has felt depressed and suicidal. She said she did attempt to kill herself by overdosing and ended up moving back in with her parents to cope with the trauma and stress.

She was unable to get public transport for a long time because the “touch from a stranger was unbearable”.

“My whole life and sense of self have been destroyed,” she said.

Seriously............ not sure if serious.

Let's face it, this entire thing feels like one grandiose play at self-validation or attention seeking.

Destroy another persons life, feel empowered?

And that I kind of get, it's not like people aren't known for this.

But the fact that not only did the judiciary and legal profession get behind it, but imposed wildly excessive punitive measures.

Get him to sign a register, whatever, worst case scenario.

But with our prison system as it is, as overcrowded as it is and the cost to the Irish taxpayer it requires, imposing a custodial sentence for this?

.........

Personally?

I'm speechless.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659068#Comment_121659068

No, the point of the justice system is to protect society from wrong doing, tumult and exploitation.

Scumbags walking free that spend a lifetime perpetrating all manner of wrong doing, never work a day and drain probably millions from the welfare system over the course of their existence, as outlined, may never even be handed down a custodial sentence of any kind, regardless of how depraved and degenerative their acts.

What this case is comprised of, "sexual assault" in the farther reaching sense of the definition, by a man with no priors, good character, etc etc., this is not justice.

This is not the work of something I could in good conscience define as a "justice" system.

It's prejudicial against men, it's destructive, it's primitive.

As the linked report outlined, if a woman had awoken a man with such an act, would someone so much as bat an eyelid?

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659134#Comment_121659134

The point I was making was that based on Dutch culture, the probability of this case being regarded as seriously at is has been here, would be I suspect, almost non-existently low.

By the definition of the proposed amendment you outline, technically if the defendant here, so much as brushed up against the plaintiff in a manner that could be construed as sexual, he would be guilty of sexual assault?

This is all an extreme stretch/reach of definitions and condemnation of what is in reality, perfectly rational behaviour.

We could scrutinize the particulars forever but it comes down to this - a destroyed career, a destroyed future, and the real obscenity, a 15 month custodial sentence, for attempting to initiate sexual engagement in the gentlest possible way, with a naked woman in his bed whom had put herself there with the express intention of engaging sexually?

.......

As above....... I'm speechless.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660665#Comment_121660665

Trying to make this not complex.....

Consent isn't continuous.

Just because they had consentual contact earlier in the evening, didn't mean he could grope her in her sleep.

Just because she got into his bed, does not mean he could grope her in her sleep.

The charge was warranted and the sentence was light.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660823#Comment_121660823

"The gentlest possible way"

Embarrassing.

Sugar_Rush

The other reality this case conveys to me is:

Those in higher positions in society, perhaps positions considered "privileged", are held to a much higher standard.

Do we really believe that if "Anto" pulled a stunt like this, a woman would have even bothered to report him?

Not the same sense of validation to be had from tearing down someone who's already at the bottom.

And clearly the state and judiciary feels the same way.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662652#Comment_121662652

You need to educate yourself.

What is sickening is your attempts to paint the man who carried out an assault on a sleeping woman, as the victim here.

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.consenthub.ie/consent/#consent-the-basics

The law is clear.

ohnonotgmail

I can't believe there are people defending the sexual assault of a woman that was asleep. A person asleep cannot consent. You need to be conscious to give consent. Also, consenting to foreplay the previous evening does not give implied consent to the person to continue the same the next morning. We have probably all woken up next to somebody we met the night before and shuddered. I know I have.

Sugar_Rush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671297#Comment_121671297

No one is defending it.

We're also skeptical about the term, "assault".

Sleaze ball manoeuvre?

Dude with no game?

Horny dumb ass?

Probably all of the above. But 15 months in custody is absurd, and I can't but conclude this was based off the actions of a ruthless and vindictive woman, and a judge who's name was "Karen".

Robbo

Moderation: Away to AH with your projection and sexism.