Dublin Port Tunnel air quality

GPoint

Have to use the tunnel often now and noticed that the air inside the tunnel is so bad that on some days you could see the smoke in the tunnel affecting visibility. Obviously loads of lorries contributing to pollution. But why there are no forced ventilation systems at all? On the continent they fit multiple turbine fans along the ceiling in the tunnel and that is a good design. Here you pay 12.50 , drive with recirculation ON and still smell the exhaust. Is this a recent degradation or was it always this bad?

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058331598/dublin-port-tunnel-air-quality

There are fans on the ceiling of the tunnel and they can change directions depending if there is a fire and which direction they want the smoke to move. Maybe contact Dublin tunnel directly with your concerns. There was reports in the past that some systems such as safety cctv cameras were not working and at a certain point it can force a tunnel closure.

At this time of year cold engines can produce a lot more visible pollution.

10-10-20

Some of the ventilation fans in tunels in Europe are left running in low-speed ventilation mode to encourage better airflow, can't see why it can't be done here too. Might be worth asking whether they monitor air quality as well as smoke if you are onto them.

munchkin_utd

it seems that those fans are the only ventilation system in the tunnel, so indeed, you would need the fans to be turning to pump out all the fumes.

The inadequate ventilation system is also seemingly the reason that they dont want heavy traffic in the tunnel and why tolls are so punitive

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30132615.html

bikeman1

One thing to remember is the Port Tunnel drops significantly from entry at both ends and then is a steep climb back out. This means laden HGVs have to work hard to haul their load out going both ways thus creating plenty of fumes and smoke.

I for one am glad that those fumes are not on the streets of Dublin anymore.

Put your internal air circulation on and stop complaining. Also why are you paying €12.50? Must be loaded!

mcgragger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623798#Comment_121623798

its entirely believable that a bajillion euros was spent on tunnels with no ventilation.

This country sometimes!

munchkin_utd

in fairness though, its better the fumes are in the tunnel than the old times where you had diesel fumes all along both sides of the quays in the city centre.

Better still, those were the days before the NCT or clean trucks so the fumes were insane. I got the waft of a clapped out french diesel a couple of times in the past year (no idea why they get away with faulty cars in France, but in general its shocking the amount of old cars still on the road there) and it brought back memories of being in Dublin in the 90s.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623798#Comment_121623798

The tolls are punitive because it's a HGV route to Dublin port and not a commuter route to the city. They don't want heavy traffic as that means that the HGVs are affected and they have thight deadlines to meet.

GPoint

Tolls have increased from January 1st , it’s 3.50 / 12.00 now

loyatemu

peak time toll should be higher, it hasn't remotely kept pace with inflation and I'm sure plenty of people just write it off as a business expense.

Flinty997

Never seen congestion in the tunnel or fumes. Normally quite light traffic especially at peak. That said I don't dispute the studies of it.

If traffic builds they close the toll. So it's at the toll you see congestion, or queues..

Beta Ray Bill

Couple of things OP

1: If a slight bit of smoke affects your ability to see where you're going you probably shouldn't be driving.

2: If you're using a private Car, can you please stop using the tunnel? It's getting ridiculous now at this stage the the tunnel traffic has to be stopped during rush hour because there's a stack of private cars entering it.

Tunnel needs an outright ban on cars during rush hour, with a €1,000 fine for breaking the rule. If you appeal and lose the fine should be €5,000.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653615#Comment_121653615

They are coining it in every day at peak hours. It's genuinely crazy how many cars use the tunnel at the peak price.

One thing, apart from them not wanting to lose that income, is that it would add even more congestion onto already full roads heading towards Drumcondra and Fairview in the morning. While not the intended solution, it certainly assists with getting people through to the Port area. I would hazard a guess many then continue over the East Link to get to work in the South City area.

A much better solution would be a park and ride from the holiday inn / clayton, straight into the Port Tunnel, stop at The Point for the luas, over the East Link and terminate at Baggot St. area.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654108#Comment_121654108

It's bananas

That tunnel was specifically built for trucks and coaches, to get them off the roads going into the Port and DCC.

It's quite clear at this point that one of two things is happening.

Either they work from home most of the week and a prepared to "take the hit" once or twice per week and drive into town or beyond.

OR

They're very wealthy people with the their own companies or are using company cars and are expensing it.

I genuinely had no idea the problem was so bad up until a few month ago.

I often stay in my GF's house in swords and have stopped using the swords express to get into work at this stage and prefer to just drive home to Raheny and get the Train in.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654169#Comment_121654169

Ramp the toll up to €30 or €50 or whatever it needs to be to bring down the peak time congestion in the tunnel.

They are coining it in every day at peak hours. It's genuinely crazy how many cars use the tunnel at the peak price.

If they ramp up the toll, it is possible they would continue to make the same amount of total revenue, while reducing congestion.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654949#Comment_121654949

If they ramp up the cost of the toll exorbitantly, you may see more and more HGV returning to city center roads

Bogwoppit

Moving vehicles inside the tunnel create enough airflow that ventilation is not necessary.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655062#Comment_121655062

How come?

hgvs are free so how will pricing cars out of using the tunnel lead to HGVs driving through the city ? That makes no sense.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121654949#Comment_121654949

If people are expensing it, it wont make a blind bit of difference. Just comes off the Tax the company has to pay.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655062#Comment_121655062

Once a heavy goods vehicle is over 3500kg it's free (Note a Nissan Leaf weighs about 1567 kg, so nearly all HGV's are covered.). Buses with over 25 seats are also free.

bikeman1

A HGV / Bus only lane on the right hand side coming into the tunnel heading towards the port, with traffic lights giving full priority to the HGVs and metering the cars only would help. Let them wait, doing away with one of the benefits and then collect the €12.00 on the way out.

Full priority must be given to buses and HGVs for the tunnel. Mary in her SUV coming in from Malahide or Skerries on her own can wait.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655201#Comment_121655201

If people are expensing it, it wont make a blind bit of difference. Just comes off the Tax the company has to pay.

Well first of all, it would likely eliminate those who aren't paying it against tax. I suspect not all are company owners, €12 is probably low enough that some higher earning employees like folks working IT who work from home a couple days a week might be using it.

Keep in mind, plenty of folks paying €20 to €25 per day for parking in the city. For some who might have free parking in the city, paying the toll can be worth it.

Ramp it up and even they will think twice about it.

If it doesn't reduce the numbers by enough, then keep increasing it. Writing off tax isn't some free money hack, it still has a cost for business owners and at a high enough cost it will start knocking out smaller ones at least.

Of course you could introduce legislation to stop tolls being written off against tax.

If all that doesn't work, sure, ban cars from using the toll at peak hours.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655352#Comment_121655352

I used to think this too, that how could it not be some money hack.

Turns outs paying less tax by spending more money and writing it off as expenses or a loss is "a thing", don't ask me why it's a thing cause I don't know. And I cannot back it up with hard data. I just know it's a thing that people do for some reason. Its obviously to do with the tax man IE Paying more Tax is bad even if you end up with a bit more money in some scenarios.

Legislation would effect haulage companies so I don't think that will run.

Just ban them from the tunnel and be done with it. We've already done it on Dame St.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658100#Comment_121658100

Well changing legislation to exclude it as a business expense wouldn’t impact hauliers using the tunnel, as it is already free for them.

I suppose you mean if the legislation applied to all tolls and not just the port tunnel. Well just have it apply to the port tunnel only or say you can only claim the first €3 of a toll, so it wouldn’t impact hauliers on other tolls. There are definitely ways to do it if the government wanted to.

BTW offsetting business expense against tax only applies to taxes on any profit your company makes. If you set the toll high enough, you would definitely make it less attractive to smaller business owners who don’t make big profits. If the amount you are paying on tolls becomes higher then the taxes you pay on profit, then it just becomes an actual cost to you.

BBTW I personally have no issue with just banning car outright from the tunnel at peak times. However the government might be slow to do that because of the money they make from the tolls, I was thinking of ways to reduce the congestion while keeping the toll money, which might be more attractive to the government.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623872#Comment_121623872

this design, coupled with slow speeds when contested and these days cold air at each end of the tunnel will make ventilation tough.

here is the spec

VENTILATION

Forced ventilation is provided within the tunnel by sixteen large jet fans mounted from the tunnel ceiling at various locations in each tube. The system performs two main functions: dilution of pollutants from vehicle exhausts in normal operation and control of smoke in the event of a fire. The ventilation system employed is a longitudinal system where, in simple terms, air is blown through the tunnel in the direction of traffic flow and vitiated (polluted) air is expelled from the exit portals. Under normal operating conditions, it is likely that forced ventilation (using jet fans) will only be required on an occasional basis. For the majority of the time, the airflow induced by vehicles passing through the tunnel (the so called ‘piston effect’), is sufficient to ensure that acceptable limits of pollutants are not exceeded. Sensors continuously monitor the quality of air in the tunnel and if pre-set limits are reached, jet fans are automatically switched on to supplement the piston effect and increase air flow through the tunnel to dilute these pollutants.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623798#Comment_121623798

That article is from 2004. It's two decades old.

JVince

I never understand the argument that people do things because a company can write a cost off against tax.

Corporation tax is 12.5% (15% for very large companies)

12.5% is not an incentive for an avoidable cost.

It's more likely that €12 will save xx minutes. Those xx minutes are worth more than €12

Flinty997

I don't get why people think €13 is something only billionaire can afford.

One reason given for the increases, is the increase in traffic using the tunnel by 17% in the last 4 years. But most of the congestion (and pollution) at the tunnel is caused by the toll barriers stopping HGV, which apparently is a bottleneck especially when a ship comes in. Their plan with the port expansion is to increase the number of HGvs.

I mostly use the train. What puts me off the tunnel for even rare use is not the toll. But the congestion on the M50.

Dublin Port has admitted that its expansion plan will increase the number of trucks on the M50 from 10,000 to 17,500 every day.

Dublin Port is planning to double its capacity so that it can handle 3.1 million trailers and containers by 2040.

However, it has acknowledged that this would lead to a 75 per cent increase in truck traffic on the M50 as they travelled via the Dublin Port Tunnel.

Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), which operates the M50, has warned that increasing truck traffic by such a scale would require the introduction of demand management measures such as new tolls on the M50.

ahnowbrowncow

As a sole trader, using the toll during your commute to your normal place of work is not an allowable deduction for tax purposes.

Your company/employer reimbursing you for toll costs during your commute to your normal place of work is a taxable payment and should be put through the payroll.

If and when operated properly, I'm not seeing the tax benefit. Legitimate business expense from the tolls would be very small compared to commuter expenses from the tolls.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752343#Comment_121752343

A combination of significantly increasing the toll on private cars + moving to barrier free tolls like on the M50 would likely help ease the congestion and allow for the increase in port traffic, which of course is what this port tunnel is supposed to be for.

Flinty997

I can find no direct evidence of cars causing congestion in the tunnel.

Reports suggest its either congestion at the barrier, especially for trucks due to the barriers or a ship coming in. Or just general congestion across the city backing up to the tunnel. Meaning traffic has no where to go.

When this happens they control access to the tunnel so it doesn't get blocked.

afatbollix

They should put in cameras like the M50?

Even stopping for 30 seconds adds up at rush hour.