VRT NI car

david

Hi guys - I have purchased a 2019 car with two previous owners from a VW dealership in NI.

I have presented all documents to NCTS outlined on the revenue guidelines and they are refusing to approve registration because the most recent date of change on the V5C is November 2021. The car has a full history and first registration was in Belfast July 2019. Never been registered in GB.

They have requested a ferry ticket, prev tax and insurance documents or an original v5 (destroyed) predating 01/01/2019.

Do I have any case here to avoid Customs/VAT? I can’t see any way I’d get the documents requested due to GDPR legislation. Have no idea who the original owner is to ask them.

It’s clearly an NI car without an age related GB reg

Many thanks for your advice

david

Apologies - typo here, documents requested need to predate 01/01/21 (brexit)

User1998

If it had an MOT before Brexit that would suffice

colm_mcm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604603#Comment_121604603

2019 car usually wouldn’t need one til 2023.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609131#Comment_121609131

Its due after 3 years in the UK so it would be due in 2022. I was thinking there might be a possibility it was MOT’d early or something

GSBellew

Is the dealer you bought it from the original supplying dealer?

If they are you may be able to get them to supply a letter confirming that the car was first registered in NI on xx/xx/202x

Getting the service history would be my next stop, can you show it was serviced in NI before Brexit?

Curious to see how it goes.

mickdw

Interesting.

This is the danger with buying a perfectly legit NI car...... Proof.

Would history check add anything.... original reg being an NI plate etc.

Let us know how it works out.

david

Ive tracked back the history of the car, supplied full service history, letters from all VW supplying dealers, declaration that the car was collected from Stena compound on 08/07/2019 by a motor freight carrier in Belfast prior to sale (new on registration).

The car has carried two plates, the original one it’s on now which is clearly which is three letter and four digit NI reg, and a private plate which was reverted back by VW garage who supplied it to me.

All of this doesn’t tick any of the boxes outlined by Revenue yet if I have a ferry ticket with my reg on it from pre 2021, they accept that. Madness.

Ive written to minister of finance and the revenue commissioner. Will let you guys know what happens next.

mickdw

If you know all dealers involved, could original dealer contact original owner and ask then if they would be willing to talk to you. If so, they might be able to produce proof of taxing in NI prior to brexit.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609647#Comment_121609647

Are you dealing with frontier management directly?

It took me months to get past them, I'd nothing only a ferry ticket pre brexit and a NI mot from a month before I bought the car. They're website clearly stated a ferry ticket was evidence, they wouldn't accept it though as no proof the car went on the ferry that day or the ferry ticket wasn't a forgery. They really were making up scenarios in their heads to get the customs and vat.

I didn't pay a penny until it was sorted.

Buddy Bubs

What is the formula for calculating UK and NI imports into ROI? I know it's unlikely to throw up any bargains but I'm going to keep an eye out. I'd be looking at 2022 onwards

From what I know

UK car

Sterling price converted to euro

VRT based on revenues valuation

10% Customs based on revenues valuation

ROI VAT 23% based on revenues valuation

Original NI car

Drop the customs and VAT charges

drunkmonkey

Yes that's it.

Some discounts in the electric cars as vrt is very low.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609760#Comment_121609760

Customs and vat is based on uk invoice Price plus any transport costs.

Car traders can claim back uk vat on vat qualifying cars or can claim 1/6 of uk invoice price from uk revenue on non vat qualifying cars once exported from uk.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609776#Comment_121609776

It would be electric I'd be looking at

But based on my calculations it's way more expensive compared to buying in ROI, about 15k difference in it.

It's the double VAT that's the killer. Drop the 23% vat and it's preferable to buy in UK even with the customs and the vrt.

I presume it's nearly impossible to get a dealer to sell a car exempt of UK VAT to a private purchaser is it? There isn't a single version of what I'm looking at for sale in northern Ireland at the moment that I can see.

mickdw

Only option us to use a dealer to source in uk. Their cut should be still better than paying double vat.

Sono

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609808#Comment_121609808

Was thinking this myself reading the thread, absolute disaster trying to have all your ducks in a row doing it on your own.

Best of luck OP I hope you get sorted and keep us posted.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609647#Comment_121609647

What NCT centre are you using? Try a few other ones and you might get lucky with sound staff members.

td2008

Yeah could be worth it. I found kells were fine to deal with. Guy there named Paul iirc

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609875#Comment_121609875

From my experience the NCT aren't the issue, they'll submit all the paperwork and then it goes to the revenue for approval. It's not as simple as just having everything correct and they take full payment there and then.

Where the NCT have say is the value. I'd to argue that as well, NCT said car was perfect, I went directly to frontier management and proved it wasn't, got a discount there as well.

I was fined for not paying in time but all that was wiped off when everything else was sorted.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609927#Comment_121609927

In my experience if I ever have trouble in a certain NCT centre with paperwork such as shipping documents or emissions certs I can usually just go 10 minutes down the road to another centre and they will sort it for me as they are less strict.

drunkmonkey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121610004#Comment_121610004

There's no trouble with the paperwork from the NCT centre in these cases, it's when they submit them to the revenue for vat and customs calculations the problem arises. You can't just rock up to another centre and hope to get lucky.

Gusser09

Its an extremely complex formula unfortunately. Its could be simplified.

OP not sure what you can do here. It takes the goodness out of getting a decent spec car for a decent price.

mickdw

At the end of the day, they are not entitled to vat or duty on the ops car so it needs to be escalated to a level that it can be personally reviewed by someone with the power to say its legit.

How you manage to do that with revenue, I don't know. You will probably get the old pay and appeal response and this is what you may have to do.

The appeals at least are reviewed and common sense usually applied but I've not heard of an appeal in these circumstances concerning vat and duty.

david

I’ve received an acknowledgment from the ministers office it’s being reviewed. Thanks for all the well wishes and PMs.

I’m at the stage now where I’m looking at cost to change to import another vehicle with a V5C dated prior to 2021.

It’s a ridiculous scenario that HRMC can’t provide info to Revenue for such a clear cut case. Absolute money gouge. Not a hope in hell I’m paying Vat and import duty in the hope of claiming it back. Matter of principal.

What they are asking is borderline immoral. Asking me to operate outside the lines to locate the original owner and retrieve confidential data.

I’ll keep you all posted. I have 7 days left to register without penalty otherwise it’ll be heading back to the forecourt.

david

The whole experience stinks. The first application rejected my proof of address for being printed black and white and likely not a posted document. They asked for an accompanying printed bank account statement with an address to verify.

I enquired where I could print locally and she advised me to sign up for a library near Tallaght square 2km away, ironically also requiring proof of address. Refused to give me my car keys as it was “undergoing inspection” even though the fella checking the chassis number outside the window had finished and dropped the keys back.

Got the relevant statement printed and returned in less than 5 minutes by asking a favour of a lovely guy in Folens next door. I think this whole scenario turned them sour looking for a reason to decline.

As someone who makes a living in people/customer management, I will never understand why people are unreasonably **** towards others because of issues in their own work/life.

Rant over.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611488#Comment_121611488

You need an original bank statement, otherwise you bring two forms of proof of address. Its clearly stated on the VRT checklist. Nothing sour about it tbh.

Not sure if you read my other posts but I was specifically referring to Greenhills VRT. I can tell now after you mentioned Tallaght and Folens that thats who your dealing with. They are absolute c*nts there, always causing me hassle. I completely avoid Greenhills now because they are so unreasonable.

colm_mcm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609452#Comment_121609452

That’s vans, cars is 4 years

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121611968#Comment_121611968

Edit: Apologies, different rules for Northern Ireland than mainland UK?

colm_mcm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121612081#Comment_121612081

Yes, their testing system is different to mainland UK too in that they have test centres rather than using garages

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121609760#Comment_121609760

No customs charge if car is made in the UK

Dr Karl

If you are not happy with how the NCTS has dealt with you, you should make a complaint to the Ombudsman. Government Departments, Agencies and private companies like the NCTS who have a government contract will just try to gaslight you.

https://www.ombudsman.ie/

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/mechanic-refused-to-fix-error-after-wrongly-adding-40000km-to-motorists-nct-cert-ombudsman-reveals/a1938710797.html

david

Update for you all. Got a call today from Revenue to advise that they have approved the registration of my car without a liability for VAT and customs duty. I had lobbied a few people as a last resort in this process and I’m sure I wouldn’t have succeeded without.

The person with influence in this case was the chairman of the Revenue Commission chairmansoffice@revenue.ie. His private secretary and the civil servant that contacted me were nothing but communicative, helpful and apologetic.

I had obviously protected the identity of the businesses involved until the matter was resolved but feel I need to give them a shout out for incredible service for anyone else looking to get a used car in NI.

Mods: I sincerely hope this is allowed within the guidelines of this forum; please edit and remove if not.

The Phillips Lisburn and Agnews Belfast VW dealerships up north did everything they could to get a comprehensive documentation of the vehicle ownership together to strengthen my case. When the decision came down to the wire with my 30 days expiring this week, I was offered a full refund by Liam and Will in Phillips with no questions asked or restocking fees. Agnews had nothing to profit from this and they still went above and beyond. I’m not sure I would have the same experience from other dealerships, car supermarkets etc.

Revenue VRT dept in Wexford, Applus Greenhills NCTS, DVLA, HRMC customs - nothing but a brick wall following a script.

I hope this thread serves as a good resource for anyone else in the same position.

Lastly, a massive thanks to all here for the well wishes, PMs and support. As a long time member who hasn’t frequented as much as I’d like recently; this thread has reminded me what the spirit and value of Boards.ie is all about.

mickdw

Excellent. I don't know how you managed to get the ear of someone at high level but it clearly cut right through the bullsh1t.

TraceyP1999

Hi all, just wanted to check in and see what you guys think.

Bought a car originally from GB but moved to NI at 6 months old (Nov 2019), and stayed there since.

The dealer I bought it from is the dealer that imported it from GB. I got an invoice showing where it was purchased and the dealer that bought it being in NI with the car reg and date (2019) all on it. I also got an invoice of when the car was first sold in NI and it shows an NI address (this was August 2020).

I went to VRT yesterday and was basically told I could’ve forged these documents that I got from the dealer, even with a signature of the sales associate on them and me knowing they are perfectly legit.

It also says on the VRT website:

Registering vehicles imported from Great Britain before 1 January 2021

These vehicles can be registered as normal. You must provide documentary proof that the vehicle was imported before 1 January 2021. An example of proof would be a sales invoice or a ferry ticket which identifies the specific vehicle.

Was essentially told in the VRT app to just try harder to get more but just feel that what I had was more than enough and is what is requested by revenue. The person working in VRT didn’t even submit the invoices to revenue because they just said they know they’ll be rejected.

Anyone any advice? Much appreciated.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765335#Comment_121765335

Try another VRT centre and print off the Revenue guidelines and highlight them and staple them to the back of the invoice

david

Submit all of your documentation through your revenue MyAccount and expect it to be rejected. When received, email a follow up with the ticket number and attachments of all invoices etc to chairmansoffice@revenue.ie.

Good luck!

PukkaStukka

OP, your positive experiences of the motor dealers mentioned up north concur with mine. I find they do try to be as helpful as they can. Like you also found and the exact polar opposite, Revenue Commissioners in Wexford are utterly abominable, offering nothing but premeditated obstruction to even the most tame of enquiries. How they in particular have been allowed conduct themselves as they do for so long defies belief. They would do well to take a look at how well their peers elsewhere in Revenue conduct themselves with courteousness and professionalism.

goochy

its good business selling down south for northern dealers , but still good to see how they handle things. They have been running professionally run dealerships up there much longer than down here.

remember travelling up to Boucher road as a teen - was like going to car heaven

damemcd

Agnews told me on Monday that they have been instructed from vw UK head office to cease selling to customers from the South, this was in relation to a Seat Leon but it was Agnews vw Belfast.

goochy

The problem with ni dealers selling down South is they miss out on aftersales business and there is less cars in future for locals to buy .

The ni use car supply is very low

I remember years mercedes uk had their own used car centres and they wouldn't sell to Ireland. Mad when it's used cars

MrRigsby

The staff in the NCT Centre in Kells which I went to for VRT assessment were thick as 2 short planks and pig ignorant. They make the rules up as they go along . Wanted a copy of the previous owners insurance to prove it was an NI car ! Revenue should be handling VRT , at least their staff have to have a decent education

witnessmenow

I'm hopefully picking up a car from NI next week this thread has me a little nervous, despite it being in theory a straight forward case.

Car is a 22 NI reg, one owner, being sold to me by the garage that I believe sold it in the first place (I know for sure they did the two services on it).

Since it's only one owner, and it's on its original NI reg, Will the v5c be enough or should I be looking for something else to help the case?

david

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774003#Comment_121774003

Won't be any issue, the V5C will be fine. The issue I had only arises with pre brexit cars where the last previous keeper purchased the car post brexit.

witnessmenow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774048#Comment_121774048

Thanks David, appreciate it! There is a bit of a delay before I'm going up to get the car next week so all I can do in the mean time is worry about how it will go wrong :D

millington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773646#Comment_121773646

It's Revenue that state they require tax and insurance details, not the NCT staff. The system is shambolic, complete breach of GDPR to try and get those details even if by some slim chance you chase them back to 4 years ago. They also require both insurance AND tax details from NI, however if you tax a car online in NI you don't get a receipt with an address on it.

It's a disgrace that they are allowed have this "computer says no" attitude to genuine cases. There is also no option to escalate your issue to a higher authority.

TraceyP1999

Just to let everyone know as it may be of help to some.

I went back to the VRT centre with the same documents as the last day, but it was a different person working. I just said I was in last week and was told I had to get proof that the car was in NI before 2021 etc, but didn’t say the girl previous said the docs weren’t good enough.

He took all the docs and was on the phone I guess with whoever in revenue gives the green light and came back and said they accepted it and I just had to pay the VRT.

So overall revenue will accept sales invoices from NI, and who you get in VRT makes a massive difference even though it should be completely objective.

Thanks everyone for your feedback and hopefully that experience helps someone else 😁

ian123

Hi

I'm looking at getting a car from the north as well, but this whole VAT and Customs Duty is quite concerning. I have read that the current VAT/Duty situation is down to some unilateral changes that the UK made some years back that opened up a loophole for tax avoidance, but that this situation may well resolve itself from the 1st May 2024 if this response to an Oireachtas question is to be believed. The supplied answer did include some ridiculous requests concerning insurance details of previous owner (unlikely if purchased via motor dealer). It does appear that this response removes the limits around cars being registered in NI before 2021. The whole VRT process was so much easier when i imported a car back in 2010.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-02-28/33/

damemcd

The insurance end of that is ridiculous and probably illegal, chasing down and asking a previous owner for his/her details is surely a non starter.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936126#Comment_121936126

I doubt you’ll need all forms of proof. I’d imagine the V5 alone will suffice and the other documents are just supplementary.

I personally witnessed someone in the VRT centre last week register a NI reg car with the last owner change being after Brexit. The car was never MOT’d so they have no other proof the car was actually in use in NI. The VRT staff called Revenue and they allowed them to VRT it without VAT or customs which is technically against current guidelines.

kincaid

I think the mot in Ni was 4 years from new and in England Scotland and Wales as 3 years and quick check online if it was NI, there would be no record of it in Mainland UK system.

UK Mainland cars have to be put on the NI Mot system first.