Alex Higgins!

The Golden Miller

Just wanted to make a thread to see what other people's views are. There seems in recent years, to be a rewriting of this man's ability and talent. Many point out he made less than 100 centuries, others say he'd be hammered if he played today.

To address the centuries point, there was so few tournament to actually rack up official centuries, and it was only when he popularised the game, this actually started to happen, years later. He also played in an era with heavier balls, rubbish cloth etc, and where the aim was to get ahead, and play safe to kill off the frame.

We're also told he only won two world titles, one whereby in 72, it wasn't a serious thing. In 82, it was one of the few tournaments he actually practised when sober and applied himself, he beat everyone when he tried, for his daughter. Was drunk at home and seen his young daughter on a stool trying to pot a ball, and broke down crying. Said he'd apply himself and win it for her. He won, pulling off one of the greatest intuitive breaks the game has ever seen

People forget too, he cued wrong, his stance was wrong, he was never trained or coached properly, and played under the influence with absolutely no time for positional play. A standard half century for a player today, was a massive uphill battle for Higgins. He'd run out of position every shot, doing everything wrong as usual, and drunk, and to keep that small break going would require at least 4 otherworldly pots.

But that's the point, that's his brilliance and true genius. Despite being drunk and doing everything wrong, he could repeatedly pot balls every frame, no player before or since could pot with such regularity.

He wasn't the best ever or didn't win the most, but he had the greatest natural eye for the game that I've ever seen, if you needed one man to pull off an impossible shot to save your life it's Higgins you want. Hendry even said at his funeral, people don't actually realise how good he was in full flow.

I wish he could of been born today, nurtured and coached how to do everything right, without any of the drink and drugs. I genuinely believe if that was the case, he was a prodigious talent, even greater than O'Sullivan. He repeatedly potted shots even O'Sullivan wasn't capable of imo. The sharpest and most natural eye we've ever seen in the game, which many have tried to downplay with 'stats" on centuries and that sort of thing, completely out of context.

He genuinely was a genius imo, his career completely hindered and corrupted by his own hand and others, but a genius none the less

mickdw

A great player considering his style and throwing the cue at stuff but when you look at his 'best break of all times, in truth, its far from it and is just a series of single ball pots being out of position for the entire break.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121603789#Comment_121603789

Well in a way, who else could repeatedly pot such out of position shots, drunk and doing everything wrong, yet have such a sharp eye?

People like to downplay his 82 break too, it is the greatest break ever. It was no miss snooker, and the harder you pushed Higgins, was when his most intuitive side came out.

That blue, with heavier balls and terrible cloth, under such extreme pressure, was unbelievable, the jutt in his cueing he had to apply to generate the spin, no other player could of done it tbh. Easy to do today no doubt, not so easy then and under the circumstances .

A moment of genius

gormdubhgorm

Good single ball potter, could cause a row in an empty room. Could just as easily headbutt a tournament official, pee in plant pot at a venue, or threaten a fellow NI player that he will have him shot. However, he was exactly what snooker needed right place, right time.

As regards the number of centuries his contemporary Terry Griffiths got the same number of centuries as him (86) - with Griffiths playing 7 years less than Higgins as pro.

https://cuetracker.net/head-to-head/alex-higgins/terry-griffiths

I view Higgins more of novelty act rather than a proper snooker player, yes he had touch. But his positional play was awful.

That 69 break he got that many rave about was all over the shop.

https://youtu.be/CAO48WSZnRU?si=_1nycVijfsmhPd75

But he drew the crowds in, got bums on seats. Even so Barry Hearn had the sense not to manage him. He was unreliable and uncontrollable.

But he created a buzz wherever he went. Ken Doherty would not have started playing snooker only for him. Plus I remember barging through a crowd 5/6 deep in Goffs to get Alex's autograph in Goffs as a young lad. The time he wore that Purple Fedora. He was sitting at a table surrounded by about 20 pints of larger, smoke in his mouth.

Nearest 'modern' player I would compare him to is Tony Drago. Combustable fast, inconsistent, poor positional player. But back in Higgins time he was a one off.

Drago 129 centuries in 30 years.

https://cuetracker.net/players/tony-drago/career-total-statistics

Drago fastest century -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVaUhlgIa6U

Drago slaps himself and loses the head -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gN6Fk_RS54

The difference is Drago seemed like a decent auld salt - (or the Maltese equivalent). Higgins was not.

FluffPiece

Having met him, he was a **** and I delighted in winding the fucker up.

gormdubhgorm

Was just watching Mark Allen on Hendry's 'Cue Tips' channel.

Some very relevant stuff about Alex Higgins on it.

Allen said "To be honest my interactions with Alex were never great, he was never really the nicest"

He then told one story about how when he was about 15 there was story in a newspaper about Mark saying he could be the "Next Alex Higgins". Then at 3/4 in the morning his mother received a call from Alex looking for money because his name was mentioned in the article!

https://youtu.be/lvrWdg03ZnY?si=RjiTdQwAVs5zLhxJ&t=150

loyatemu

Allen would have been 15 in 2001 at which point Higgins had been through cancer and was probably flat broke so was probably chancing his arm. He was by most accounts a prick but he was also a raging alcoholic so the two things are intertwined.

There's no point comparing statistics between the pre-90s players and now, the game has changed so much. Joe Davis pretty much invented snooker as a sport, he'd be hammered by any professional today. It's the same in most sports, standards march on - the greats of the past were good enough to beat their contemporaries.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121619743#Comment_121619743

Fair points on Higgins been all over the shop with the cancer etc. Still odd behaviour though to say the least.

But you definitely can compare Terry Griffiths century record with Higgins. Similar eras and their careers largely overlapped. Higgins winning his first world in 1972 and Griffiths winning in 1979. Alex turning pro in 1971 and Griffiths turning pro in 1978.

Yet both have the same amount of centuries 86. That stunned me when I learnt it first. Especially as Higgins is painted as this swashbuckling entertainer by many, and Terry is dour safe stereotype. Plus not only that Terry was a pro for a lot less years than Alex 7 years less. And Griffiths played less frames in his career than Alex did still getting the same amount of centuries as the Hurricane.

https://cuetracker.net/head-to-head/alex-higgins/terry-griffiths

Higigns retiring from the pro game in 1997 and Grififths retiring from the pro game the same year.

I know I posted it already. But to me it really shines a light on how overrated Higgins actually was. I mean part of his excuse for not winning more tournaments was he wanted to entertain and took wild shots. Tough a fella with more cop on would vary his game. But Alex Higgins was very high on hype, but low on cop on. That is how I view him anyway.

People who talk Alex Higgins up seem to do so with heavy rose tinted glasses on. He was a novelty act more than anything else, because there was nothing else like him at the time. A showman occasionally with flashes of brilliance in his unorthodox style. But not a great snooker player, poor attention span, poor positionally etc. But he did shake the game up when it was very dull and staid.

tomhammer..

He was more than a novelty act

He beat Davis in his prime in the UK Final

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620131#Comment_121620131

1983 wasn't it? I felt Higgins dined out on that one for years though. I watched the whole thing on you tube there recently. Higgins was 7-0 nil and staged a miracle comeback. Just winning on the last frame. Davis was just caught out.

Is that the only time Higgins got the better of Davis at a big major tournament?

tomhammer..

Also played in 5 Masters finals winning 2

World Championship finalist in 76 80 and 82

UK Championship finalist 3 times

You can't call that a novelty act

loyatemu

To say he had a longer pro career than Griffiths isn't the full story. After 1990 Higgins was finished and played very few matches; whilst in the early and mid 70s there were very few "proper" tournaments. The world rankings were based solely off the World Championships until something like 1981. Griffiths continued playing regularly right into the 90s while Higgins was effectively inactive. They were probably "active" for similar length of time but more of Higgins career was in the 70s and more of Griffiths in the 90s.

Arthur Daley

At the end of the day he beat Hendry to win the 1989 Irish Masters at Goffs. Best of 17. While hopping around the place.

And this when Hendry was already a demon.

tomhammer..

He beat Taylor Griffiths Thorburn Reardon Hendry and Davis in finals

He was competitive a lot of the time

dickdasr1234

He was about as low-life as you could get and a truly horrible human being, just simply nasty.

But he did things with the cue ball that nobody, before or since, could replicate.

I witnessed him in Pontin's, pissed as a coot, screw off the bunch from the break and come back to D without touching a cushion.

John Spencer introduced a new level of power hitting into the game but Higgins took it to a different stratosphere.

He was, simply, the most artistic striker of a cue ball bar none.

Ronnie was the greatest natural snooker talent ever seen, with the possible exception of Joe O'Boye who pissed it all away when just a kid.

Hendry at his peak had to be the best of the lot, ice cool.

Glory days - couldn't be arsed watching it now.

Myself and a friend bumped into him Belfast in the mid 00s and while I knew who he was (didn't recognise him) my friend was a snooker fanatic and approached him. He was painfully nice. His voice was fucked but we chatted for a couple of minutes before he had to head off.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121620076#Comment_121620076

Griffiths came in when the calander was expanded, courtesy of Higgins, end of the 70s/early 80s. Little to none of what Higgins did in the 70s, was "officially recorded", and played half the 80s before he was a spent force. And during that time in the 70s, the game was played with heavy cloths and balls, completely disingenuous to look at his centuries count, compared to modern day players.

On top of that, was constantly drunk and never coached right. My point was more his potential, which you accept was natural, if he had been coached right and wasn't constantly handicapping himself under the influence, by extension meaning he had no patience for positional play.

If he was coached right, his cueing and stance, wasn't drunk and had patience, was coached right basically, he was a phenomenal talent, not a novelty act as you keep saying. No one had his natural eye that I've seen before or since

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621720#Comment_121621720

Ah all that 'If' talk annoys me. That is just attempting to dress Alex Higgins up as something he could have been. And hide from the places where he just made a mess of things and did not make use of his talent. Griffiths played on heavy cloths and used the old snooker balls. Same amount of centuries. Yet Griffiths is slagged off as being the slow and boring player.

If he wasn't a 'novelty act' what would be the best phrase for him? I always got the impression of Higgins it was more the energy and unpredictability about him that drew the crowds in more than anything else. If Higgins had any cop on at all he would still be alive and multimillionaire, and a respected figure in the game of snooker. But he is not as he had no cop on.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121621474#Comment_121621474

You saw him break off and screw back to D without touching a cushion.

I will call bullshit on that one anyway..... unless the ref forgot to put the pink on the spot.

gormdubhgorm

I found an article from the Irish Times about Alex Higgins written in 1997.

"Applause for a man who flaunts his flaws"

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/applause-for-a-man-who-flaunts-his-flaws-1.84209

It sums the fella up neatly. Ken Doherty then World Championship helped put together the exhibition at the waterfront Belfast.

Because -

"Because he has fallen on hard times I thought it would be a nice gesture to do something about it. I thought I'd give him the opportunity to make a start. He had that charisma around the table and that's why people loved to watch him play," says Doherty.

--

So the first match was Doherty turning up to play Higgins. Higgins turned up late.

"It's 7.50 pm. and the match against current world champion Ken Doherty was scheduled to have started 20 minutes ago. Referee Len Ganley, `The Lurgan Chimney Sweep' stands by the table, a solitary figure banging off warnings to the flash camera mob. Ganley would have issued the same warnings a thousand times over his 20 year career as a professional referee. He surely realises now that no one listens. The balls are set. But Alex is still in the Europa Hotel. The Hurricane isn't ready to blow. No one is concerned. At 48 why would Alex Higgins change a lifetime habit? The bars are still buzzing in the Waterfront."

"The crowd swamp the arena. But the cameras get first bite of Alex. Tables are ordered at the bottom of the aisles for autographs. Higgins looks as comfortable as a Christian Brother in Ibrox Park. He has a candlewax complexion and in the strong light his eyes are bleached grey as he faces the BBC."

Higgins lost 5-4 but made a century and says "The 101 break was a big pocket. It was quite easy. I had some chances early on"

"`The People's Champion' is ushered away from the people. Through the doors with his cue and towel and glass of wine and minder."

--

Higgins then disappears after the match after various excuses. Doherty stays for almost an hour signing autographs.

"A brief few words Alex?" ventures a reporter.

"Give me a few minutes to freshen up lads," he replies.

Higgins disappears. Party noises and chatter flood out with the occasional opening of the door. Outside in the auditorium, Doherty is signing autographs. The compere finally announces to the fans that Alex has had to leave the building because of family reasons. Doherty stays on for almost an hour."

--

Remember Doherty was the fella who helped set up the exhibition for Alex Higgins benefit. But Higgins fecked off after arriving late, while Doherty stayed. No gratitude, shown whatsoever from Alex.

tomhammer..

I think we all realise Alex wasn't a perfect human

You seem to be a lowlife throwing some dirt on him

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636416#Comment_121636416

So just for giving my honest opinion I am lowlife and a person who quoted directly from an article a journalist reported on the man? Interesting take.

But that is the thing about Higgins it seems to me, some want to make exception after exception for the man. As if the truth can't be spoken.

Or as if it is not the done thing to take the rose tinted glasses off. As I said in an earlier post I did get his autograph as young fella (when he was sitting at a table with about 20 pints lined up) , I still have the poster of him somewhere with it signed. So he definitely attracted interest.

But there is a big BUT. Look how nice Doherty was to Higgins in the article above from 1997 yet Higgins fecked off? Stuff like that.

Plenty have said he wasn't the nicest fella, from posters on here to Mark Allen, to anecdotes about him and so on. A fella recently told me on when he was in a Karate class gym, Alex turned up pissed and wanted to fight someone in Karate. They had a job to get rid of him.

Personally I don't think Alex was as great a snooker player as is made out either. But that is just a personal opinion. He drew crowds in (got my interest to get his autograph). So he created interest I will give him that. The fact I wanted his autograph as a young lad, him with the purple Fedora and everything, proves that point. But as I grew up I no longer saw the glamour/hype of the fella.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635242#Comment_121635242

You can call it 'ifs", I'm not saying he had the career he should of had. But it's clear to see, in patches, his raw natural ability, continually able to pot ridiculous shots even O'Sullivan couldn't, and doing it every frame. Yes he destroyed his own potential by his own hand, but it can't be taken from him, that at times he did things no one before or since could do with a cue.

As for the centuries, the point was already made to you. Griffiths arrived at a time where the calender had vastly expanded thanks to Higgins, and the games profile had been raised and century counting became a thing. Most of what Higgins did in the 70s was never officially recorded, but was so good he single handedly put the sport on the map.

There's often a saying no one person is bigger than the team or sport. Higgins is the only person you could argue was bigger than the sport itself. It's up and down trajectory in popularity aligns very closely with his rise and fall, bar a golden era in the early 00s without him. It has been dying slowly since he left bar that brief period, and was a pub game before him

His natural flair and talent was outrageous, stuff people never seen before or since if you ask people who seen him in the 70s, all of which is lost. Even by the early 80s was capable of winning the world title the minute be sobered up and applied himself, and even his best days were gone by then.

I'm not saying he had the greatest career, did everything wrong, was never coached right, was under the influence, but I feel people like to rewrite history and downplay his phenomenal natural ability. He had the most natural, sharpest eye the game has ever seen, watch literally any frame he plays, losing the cueball constantly while drunk, and the mammoth pots he had to pull off to keep breaks going. Stuff no one else could repeatedly pull off.

Davis called him snookers only true genius, Hendry said people don't really know how good he was. You can call him a novelty act, but you can't doubt some of the stuff he did pull off, repeatedly, while drunk and doing everything wrong. Not many others could achieve what he did, constantly handicapped with no formal training, never practising and drunk. The fact he even won what he did speaks volumes

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637148#Comment_121637148

Look there is truth in what your saying. More professional players showed up, and as he aged couldn't wing it anymore and beat them, and as he started to get beat regularly got bitter and blamed everyone but himself.

There's many stories of him being not nice, but by the same token there's many of him being genuine. I think he tried to take advantage of "fans" as he knew they would give him whatever. But in later life he played all over the country a frame of pool if you gave him a few quid and bought him a pint, and would have time for anyone who talked to him at the bar. I think if he knew you were a fan would try and take advantage of it.

Played quite a bit in later life around where I'm from and you'd hear stories. There is often ones where he was nasty, but I think much of it was due to his addiction and desperation. He was a life long addict who always refused help, and never accepted he was to blame, so that encourages bitterness to everyone around you. I think deep down he had a good heart tbh.

I think as the standards became more professional in the game, and he wouldn't practice and dedicate himself to it, it genuinely hurt him being passed out and left behind. He knew he was as good at anyone there, but his addictions never let him fulfil his potential. There's a great tragedy to the man, but I do believe he was a prodigious talent!

You seem to be focused in his personality and what he technically did or didn't achieve. You did also say you acknowledged he had great talent, on his talent or potential alone, how would you rate it? Graham Dott has more "official" centuries to him, going by your logic Dott was better. No one could really say with a straight face, Dott's ability was even in the same stratosphere as Higgins'. Be honest! The guy was capable of absolutely incredible things, and often did things you couldn't make up.

Even the two pots against John Virgo were out of this world, they played a friendly interview game and he potted a pink and black you wouldn't believe until you seen them, and called the shots before he played them. Raw talent

The Golden Miller

https://youtu.be/oMvN0tdkwxM?si=LM27QlnzbnQCr4KO

Out of this world, and he called both shots. If that's not prodigious raw talent, I don't know what is....... and scuttered of course!

One try on each and he knew he'd pot both before he even took them. No one else, before or since, even O'Sullivan, could pull this sort of ridiculous stuff off regularly

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637240#Comment_121637240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637348#Comment_121637348

I wouldn't be comparing Alex Higgins to G. Dott! Dott will be sort of like a lesser version of Joe Johnston who played on top form for two weeks which happened to be the World Championship. Plus in any case Joe Johnston was a flashy player and back to back finals. Dott would not be on par with Higgins for entertainment, even though Dott won one and got to two other finals.

On the mad shots he played v Virgo. I saw that before, if I remember correctly I started laughing.

To be honest I think Snooker was the wrong cue sport for Higgins, pool would have been more his thing. Where it is less about positional play, but planning the clearance with shot making. I understand the argument that Higgins shook up the sport of snooker and all that. But I just don't think he deserves the level of praise he gets.

I think Ray Reardon summed it up better than I ever could on a programme about Alex Higgins. He said something like -

"Why are you always on about f**king Alex Higgins and that 82 Final? He only won two titles I won six, you know!? No one ever asks me about those!" Completely deadpan to the camera. The fact he swore as well made it even funnier. I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe it focused on the 82 Final.

It seems to me that with the three wildmen of snooker of three generations - Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, Ronnie O'Sullivan - After each generation went by they gradually reigned in their unreliable behaviours, compared to the preceding generation.

Culminating with Ronnie going to Reardon for safety tutelage on the back of advice of his father (It was Ronnie senior who sought Reardon out). So to me snooker came full circle with Reardon playing and dominating the first wildman (Higgins' era) but losing the 82 final, then helping snookers current wildman Ronnie to turn his snooker game around and become an all round great - about 2 decades after Higgins beat him in 82. It has a nice symmetry to it, I think.

bassy

The greatest snooker player to ever grace the green baize or to lift a cue,the man was something we will never see again b or will ever.............

Shove your Ronnie up ur hole,I put Alex and Jimmy miles ahead in regards of entainerz v Sullivan...........

dickdasr1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635554#Comment_121635554

It happened. It is not rendered an impossibility because you have no means of understanding how it might physically occur.

I am also appalled at your use of abusive language. It is entirely unnecessary.

mickdw

Explain the shot in detail then please.

dickdasr1234

You've obviously never seen a cueball swerve on the recoil - no point in talking to you.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058330869/alex-higgins

It’s too bad his personality was that of a total ‘pedal and crank-er’ ……he could do a few ‘amazing things’ but his vices totally outweighed/offset the few of any virtues he had….the so called ‘people’s champion’ such self indulgent nonsense…….his career was full of ‘no-shows, flops with a sprinkling of ‘wonder performances’ ………when you consider the ‘whole package’ there is little to be in awe of…….threatening to have a fellow player shot and saying vile things about players mothers are just a couple of examples……I think it was clive Everton (ex commentator) that summed him up best when he said ‘he was the best ever drunk snooker player’