JPR Williams RIP

Losty Dublin

One of the icons of the game; our sport is grateful for his contribution to it.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2024/0108/1425447-welsh-rugby-great-jpr-williams-dies-aged-74/

thebaz

Fearless and great - a real warrior

ersatz

Looking back over some of those matches you'll have to say that the amateur game at its best was unparalleled as a sporting spectacle.

Dubinusa

Oh no! An absolutely brilliant player. Rip

elperello

JPR Superstar

(you have to say it with your best Welsh accent)

RIP one of the greats.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121589982#Comment_121589982

If you watch short clips, sure. Or if you find 50 scrums a game enthralling.

OldRio

One, if not the best Rugby players I've ever seen. RIP.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590284#Comment_121590284

'50 scrums' of yesterday or reset after reset of today? I'll take the former. Its quicker.

pickarooney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF2mQKVGiX4

It starts as it goes on. I lasted 5 minutes. And these are the highlights. "He hasn't found touch, though!" :D

From a Guardian review of the legendary series.

I sat through the entirety of the second and fourth Tests of the Lions tour to New Zealand in 1971, counting the key metrics such as scrums, lineouts and tackles.

And I did it twice. So no one else would have to.

There were slightly more set pieces (50-plus scrums, 50-plus lineouts) than there were tackles in both matches. It is worth pausing to consider that. The fourth Test in particular, a draw played out in blustery Auckland, was an incoherent mess of amateurs scrummaging, flapping, kicking, punching, elbowing, trampling and generally slip-sliding around. Sometimes with a ball somewhere near them. And we grew up being told what a legendary Test series that was.

Maybe not the place for this though.

StormForce13

No doubting the fact that JPR was pure class.

But I still remember him for a savage clothesline "tackle" that he performed on Mike Gibson during a 5 Nations game in Lansdowne Road in the late 1970's. A sure fire red card nowadays, but not even a penalty back in those dark days, although JPR got a lot of booing from incensed Irish supporters for the rest of the match.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592356#Comment_121592356

Yes, I was at that game. 1978.

Interesting that it incensed the crowd, but wasn't penalised. Even in those far off days it was considered savage.

JPR was a fantastic player and may he rest in peace.

Btw, I'd consider CMH Gibson the best player I've ever seen in a great shirt.

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121592356#Comment_121592356

When I heard he was dead, that was the first thing that came to mind. And people think that those were the "good old days".

Digifriendly

This thread has degenerated sadly.

I was just a few yards away from the clothesline tackle mentioned but that is not what came first to mind when I heard the sad news about JPR's passing.

A truly great player whom I had the privilege of seeing play and yes those were the good old days.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121593052#Comment_121593052

I'd agree. Gibson was special

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590284#Comment_121590284

"At its best" is the tell there. Scrums were very fast in those days, simply restarting the game instead of today's version which are fewer in number but consume more game time. Scrum then did not stop the game in the same way as today. The quality of play is more consistently higher today and even with well matched teams there is more scoring but those games that were highly skilled in the amateur era were far more unpredictable and flamboyant. Penaud's try against Ireland last year was a throwback which is highly unusual in todays game.

pickarooney

What would you consider 'at its best'? That Lions v NZ game above is comically bad looking at it today. Handling and kicking are woeful and defence a complete afterthought and as for the set pieces...

pappyodaniel

A rolls Royce of a a full back but could mix it when he had to. Beautiful runner of a ball, similar to Liam Williams as in he never looked like he was going full peg but could go into another gear when needed.

As for his look, I reckon Maxine Medard was a fan.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121594620#Comment_121594620

Bizarre to ask that in a thread dedicated to JPR. He and the likes of Gibson are not remembered for slug fests or dull play, they’re remembered because they were hugely innovative players who did things people hadn’t seen before. It was a different game and had qualities that are gone from the pro game today, and even the higher levels of the amateur game. Rugby was far less structured and errors were accepted as part of the game, players weren’t as fit, etc. it was more spontaneous and often more brutal but some of the joy has gone from the game as it’s become so clinical. For some excellent displays of amateur rugby at its best check out some of the French 5N matches in the 80s. A couple of them in Landsdowne were crackers.

pickarooney

We'll have to agree to disagree. The highest level of rugby was objectively dreadful and violent. That French pack from the 80s were thugs.

It's all a bit jumpers for goalposts praising those qualities as the zenith of the game.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595252#Comment_121595252

You've set up a straw man to shout at. No-one claims the amateur era was the zenith of rugby, it had appealing aspects of the that are gone from the pro game, and many skilled and innovative players who had room to express themselves in ways that are more rare now. Violence and brutality are still absolutely part of the game and that French pack were no worse than many others at the time, particularly the SH teams. It was/is a brutal game, see some of the breakdown injuries last weekend as examples. They were a phenomenal team and even more remarkable given that earlier the French were serial no hopers.

pickarooney

'unparalleled' (your word) and 'best [...] ever seen'. No strawman, just rose-tinted glasses. The kicking, passing, handling and especially the tackling was just not in the same universe as any semi-pro side today.

Estève, Palmie, Cecillon... the stuff they got up to on the pitch, they wouldn't last 10 seconds in today's game. There's just no comparison with modern rugby in terms of deliberate thuggery.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598063#Comment_121598063

Many players from O Driscoll's era wouldn't last ten minutes on the pitch today with the rule changes. Something as simple as taking players out in the air, common ten years ago but unknown in the amateur game as player didn't generally jump to catch balls. You're comparing what are essentially different sports where the rules were very different, the culture was different and the levels of fitness are incomparable such that even young lower level athletes are far fitter and much better informed today than high level players 40 years ago. One thing it meant was that there was a lot more room on the pitch for running rugby which is what made it appealing. Today we rely on 'system errors' to see expressive plays. The most exciting teams today are counter attackers that exploit the few seconds where defensive systems aren't yet set. It's fun to watch but its a different game. And in terms of violence and brutality, again you are imposing contemporary norms onto an older culture. Punch ups were common even in GAA matches in the 80s, something that would cause a week of news headlines today. But I'd struggle to recall an assault as vicious from those days as what happened to ROG on the Lions tour of Oz, or even BOD in the WC warmup in France, never mind his Lions shoulder thing in NZ.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598229#Comment_121598229

Bridgend vs All Black's in 1978.

JPR's face was stamped by John Ashworth, requiring 30 stitches (from his dad Peter). He returned to the field after being treated.

Ashworth later described the incident as 'unfortunate'.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598229#Comment_121598229

Buck Shelford losing three teeth, a bollock and consciousness?

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121598063#Comment_121598063

They would easily be given food plans and dieticians, daily coaching sessions, personal training and weights rooms, video reviewing of games and psychologists, numerous training staff, masseuses, instant access to specialist medical treatments, six figure salaries etc etc.

Conversely we could ask if the top players of today's era do well if they had to fit in two 90 minutes sessions of training each week after work then pints, meeting at the ferry a morning before an international in Twickers then back home on Sunday, missing games because the day job couldn't spare you, bringing your kit home because you only got one a season, paying for your own stitches and crutches at the local hospital..... 😁

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121599281#Comment_121599281

There are tons of examples you could pick, but your idea that the amateur game was marked by a much higher level of violence is not borne out. There are plenty of examples in the modern game from gouging to punching to stamping to intentional head shots and limb injuries. Refs tolerated violence more in the amateur era, but there is still plenty of it in the game. Quinlan lost his lions place for gouging ffs.

OldRio

How sad that this thread has been dragged down.

RIP

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121600315#Comment_121600315

The legend that is John Peter Rhys Williams will live on regardless. But it is unavoidably true that he created his own legacy, including his cynical high tackle on Gibson. Whenever we, or others, come to speak of Mealamu or Umaga we will celebrate the great things they accomplished and also recall their more shameful moments.

Digifriendly

I maybe wrong here but I detect an anti Welsh sentiment in this thread. One cynical high tackle which happened to be against Ireland has IMHO been blown out of proportion. JPR was a legend in his own right and don't forget we all have feet of clay.

ersatz

@OldRio Like it or not JPR is remembered for the face injury as much as anything, partly because as a news story it transcended sport. The image was front page all over the place.

Larbre34

Sad to supplement this thread with the news that the man JPRW himself regarded as the "greatest player he ever played with", Barry John, has also died, aged 79.

One of the great Wales and Lions fly-halves and brother-in-law of the Quinnell dynasty, he is reported to have died peacefully in hospital surrounded by his family.

May he rest in peace.