Why are we having a referendum on Women in the Home?

coffeyt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601582#Comment_121601582

Shall strive to support is my issue. Again what is the issue with leaving it as is but remove the word woman and replace it with parent/family. I have no problem with family being defined as a couple (male/male, female/female, married/co-habiting or whatever is the best way to encompass everyone) .

Please refrain from trying to put words in my mouth. I said all along I'd be happy to vote yes if they removed the word woman and inserted an alternative but they are not, they are subtly changing other words and I worry about what that means long term.

The fact that the government have rejected the recommendations and instead come up with their own alternative is my main concern.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602555#Comment_121602555

What is the difference between "strive to support" and "endeavour"? Neither confers much of any obligation.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601985#Comment_121601985

Thats nonsense. The legislature can still define it. There is no option taken away.

coffeyt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602931#Comment_121602931

My point is it's that very subtle changing of words that has me questioning why?

Why bother changing a word if they mean the same thing, what's the reasoning behind that, just take the woman out of it and replace with a gender neutral alternative.

I've explained why I'm not happy voting yes and I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind, I'm just explaining my decisions as someone who it actually currently refers to!

by all means vote yes if that's what you want but I won't be.

Edited to add im also not happy with them removing the entire paragraph relating to the 'financial reasons' as it can open the door to changes to children's benefit for example.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602964#Comment_121602964

Nope, you're wrong. If the Oireachtas tried to define a durable relationship for this article as the nuclear family only for example, it would be unconstitutional as the Oireachtas does not have the authority to define it.

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601582#Comment_121601582

The government could have quite easily proposed to delete "on which the family is founded" from Article 41.3.1, left Article 41.1.1 as it is and changed the wording from woman and mother in 41.2 to homemaker. This would have allowed one parent and unmarried couples/parents to be considered a Constitutional family and both men and women would be in included in 41.2.

Under current legislation each household can have one homemaker and anyone - man or woman - who is currently receiving child benefit, carer's allowance or the carers support grant is already considered by social welfare to be a homemaker.

I can't see any reason why such a proposal would not get a very, very high voting preference.

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601985#Comment_121601985

It is just so bewildering that they could get it so wrong.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121584218#Comment_121584218

Any politician or commentator who makes claims about spending in terms of Ireland's GDP can be dismissed out of hand as they are either stupid or think the electorate is.

Everyone knows that GDP is massively inflated in this country by multinationals, to the point where it's no longer a useful measure of anything.

hotmail.com

Will the government abandon at least one of these referendums after today's Supreme Court judgement.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653775#Comment_121653775

"Chief Justice Donal O'Donnell in his ruling said the distinction in the legislation between a married and unmarried couple was "arbitrary and capricious"."

Certainly throws the cat among the pigeons!

RetroEncabulator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058330100/why-are-we-having-a-referendum-on-women-in-the-home

I'd just point out as badly organised and as chaotic as the HSE is, Ireland's spending on health in $ per capita terms, is at the upper end of the European and global spend. It's similar to New Zealand and Canada, and significantly higher than the UK. The fact that we can't get A&E and primary care to work and have ludicrous waiting lists, despite that scale of budget is where it becomes an utter fiasco and a disgrace.

Our educational outcomes on PISA scores etc are also amongst the best in the world.

Measuring anything on % of GDP here is a complete joke. Our GDP is distorted by multinationals cashflows and came in at $610 billion last year.

If we spent an OECD average on education that would be 5.1% which, based on last year would be $32.13 billion. Ireland's population is roughly 13.4 times smaller than the UK, which would mean we'd be spending the equivalent of $430 billion if you scale it up UK size population, when their education spend is $147 bn. So, we'd be spending 292% more than the UK on education, which would be utterly insane.

Our current spending on education is actually similar to the UK - we probably could be spending more on it than we are, but it still will look tiny on % of GDP scales due to distortions.

Our % of GDP figures are completely meaningless.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121604301#Comment_121604301

+1

PaoloGotti

I’ll be voting no anyway. I believe a stay at home woman should be supported by the state.

Hotblack Desiato

That clause has been there for 87 years and has resulted in precisely zero support for women or anyone else working in the home.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653916#Comment_121653916

But not a stay at home man? 🙄

Not all carers or homemakers are women.

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653775#Comment_121653775

They should abandon both. By the time March arrives, there should not be one person remaining in Ireland who is not aware that the Articles are protective and oblige the state to ensure all legislation must not be unfavourable to the family in order to be regarded as constitutional.

In his summary Chief Justice O'Donnell pointed out that men or women, married or unmarried all have the same duties and obligations to their families:

"The Constitution as interpreted recognises the rights of all children irrespective of the status of their parents. Nor is there any difference in the duties and obligations which parents, married or unmarried, owe to their dependent children."

Article 41 therefore applies equally to womens and mens duties in the home. An unmarried mother (or father) is entitled to the same equal rights as a married parent is a logical reading of this.

Both Justice Woulfe and Hogan have said Article 41 already does not require the family to be based on marriage.

Justice Woulfe and Mr Justice Gerard Hogan said that previous case law which found that the family referred to in Article 41 is limited to family based on marriage is wrong.

They said that the case and subsequent case law "accepting and endorsing it" should be overruled, and the appellants were a family for the purposes of Article 41.

Justice Hogan held that the decision was "plainly wrong and totally unsatisfactory at almost every level", and it was based on an incomplete interpretation of the text of the relevant constitutional provisions."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/court-rules-partner-woman-entitled-31938713

So now we have Supreme Court Judges, numerous barristers including several TD's, FLAC (free legal aid who have said "durable relationships" would need to specifically include reference to single parents in the wording in order to be legally sound) and many other non government reliant people and organisations who have all come out against this proposed referendum.

As barrister and TD Catherine Connolly said holding the referendum on Women's Day is a double insult. It is just beyond me why any woman or man - especially heads of one parent families -would vote to remove any rights that benefit (or are capable of potentially benefiting) their families.

As a popular ad says, Once it's gone, it's gone!

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653797#Comment_121653797

it certainly is an important ruling

so if marriages are no longer on such a high par vs civil or non-civil partnerships how does that affect the tax system here when it comes to extra benefits for married couples ?

how does it affect inheritance tax for non married couples

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655517#Comment_121655517

How many people can one have long term romantic (non married/non civil partnered) relationships with for them to be considered the same as married/civil partnered? Does the relationship(s) even have to be romantic? Does there need to be children? What if one/more parties are infertile, how fair is that?

Can of worms territory here, I think!

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655517#Comment_121655517

It is very important and will have far reaching implications.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655681#Comment_121655681

why do couples need to divorce going forward if distinction between married/non-married is arbitrary/capricious

this looks like one for eu courts perhaps

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655591#Comment_121655591

Absolute can of worms. At present in the social welfare system there is provision for a qualified adult as a partner but not sure what the requirements/benefits of being regarded as a qualified adult.

It has been 30 years since proposals to delete/amend the Articles have been mooted so I assume the government were not expecting the judgement to be in favour of the O'Mearas and were going to use it as an example of why the Constitution needed to be changed.

whatisayis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655698#Comment_121655698

That's a perfect example. I don't even know how the state could raise an appeal to the EU courts against the finding that a Constitutional family doesn't have to be based on marriage as that is exactly what they are proposing with this referendum.

PaoloGotti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655007#Comment_121655007

No, not a stay at home man. He would be of better utility to go out and work and leave the woman to do the real child rearing. In my opinion. It’s how humans have done it for thousands of years.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657297#Comment_121657297

So you support State discrimination between the sexes?

Be careful what you wish for.

Repo101

The proposed rewording will result in this referendum being a vote against the government as the changes are incredibly immaterial.

PaoloGotti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657366#Comment_121657366

Well the way you put it sounds very negative. I accept there are innate differences between the sexes that should be recognised and catered for in state benefits yes.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121601985#Comment_121601985

I think it's already in the bin.

Ezeoul

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0122/1427908-court-pension/

Delighted that this unmarried father won his case in the Supreme Court for a Widower's Pension following the death of his late partner. A step in the right direction.

Furze99

Government has already tried to bat away questions about whether polyamorous arrangements are durable relationships. Saying they aren't but who thinks that would stand up in court with such a loose woolly description.

I'm all for amending that part of the constitution - most definitely long outdated - but the proposed amendment is nonsense. I like my constitutional amendments to be robust.

I'll be voting against.