Luas Fine - question

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Hi, was fined on the Luas this morning. No issue, I forgot to tag on.

The chap dealing with me asked for my Id. I obliged, asked correct details, I agreed.

He issued the ticket, wrong date of birth on it. Maybe from a another passenger.

I said it to him when I got off, he said he doesn't matter, I argued it wasn't me as details are incorrect.

Do I have a case for not paying? If anyone has been in a similar situation.

Cheers ,

Info: The fine was 45e. He returned my leap card and told me it will be in the post. Can appeal but said not likely to succeed. How words.

Collie D

If he issued you the fine/ticket what exactly is coming in the post?

Kaisr Sose

You said there was no issue with the fine as you forgot to tag on. You gave your details to accept the fine, and now looking to get off on a technicality?

What are the grounds of appeal? Your date of birth has no relevance to you not having a validated/tagged on Leap card for the journey.

I suggest stick to plan A, and pay the fine..

callaway92

if an inspector asks you about ID and you say you have nothing on you, can you refuse to give information? (And just get off at next stop)?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058329612/luas-fine-question

No, you've got no case. If you decline to pay the fine and take the matter to court, the court will convict you and impose a penalty (which may be greater than the fine). The error in stating your date of birth in the ticket is minor and hasn't prejudiced you in any way — it hasn't, e.g., led to any misunderstanding about who the ticket refers to. You can't argue that it gives rise to any fundamental unfairness or oppression in the process by which the penalty is imposed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573409#Comment_121573409

Failure to give your name and address in these circumstances is an offence under Rail Safety Act 2005 s. 132(2). Giving a false name or address is an offence under s. 132(3). (You don't have to give your date of birth, though.)

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573409#Comment_121573409

Even for one minute, do you think the legal experts drafting the legislation or the crafty politicians who vote on it would leave such a gaping hole for you to pass through?

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573431#Comment_121573431

Nah. Just can’t imagine it being too difficult to get away with it

Trigger Happy

Just put your adult pants on and pay the fine.

Vic_08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573579#Comment_121573579

There are lots of things you can get away with in Ireland by acting like being a scumbag.

JVince

Reminds me of people asking if a fine was valid if the Garda didn't have his hat on. - yep, people used to actually believe a Garda had to have their hat on for a fine to be valid.

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573409#Comment_121573409

Have seen this happen a couple of times on the red line. Inspector asks Anto for ID, Anto tells inspector to f off and gets off saying they can't lay a hand on him. Was Anto wrong?, could he have been detained?

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590607#Comment_121590607

He could have been detained but not by LUAS personnel. This is the issue that makes non payment of fares so easy for those who are so inclined. We will always have degenerates who contribute nothing to society and are a drain from cradle to grave.

tobdom

I think its worth your while appealing OP, if you have the time & energy for it, but not on the basis you're suggesting about wrong details. If you genuinely just forgot to tag on and had credit on your card at the time etc., then it's worth a go I think.

I got a fine many years ago for forgetting to tag on for the Luas. At the time, I was a regular daily user, always tagging-on & off, regular top-ups etc. One day coming home from work, late, brain fried, I simply forgot to tag-on, that simple (had time and everything as I was waiting for one). As far as I was concerned when I saw the inspectors coming, nothing to worry about, I tagged on, I always tag-on, I did tag-on didn't I?..... Turns out I didn't, got issued with a fine.

I had sufficient credit on my card for the fare at the time and everything. I contested the fine with the evidence from my registered Leap card that I tag-on & off daily, regularly top-up etc. and that in no way was I trying to evade the fare. They made me sweat it out for 2 weeks (which I think is the length of time I had to pay the fine) before agreeing to quash the fine.

Pogue eile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573431#Comment_121573431

What exactly can they do?

newport2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590704#Comment_121590704

Same happened to me about 10 years ago. Forgot to tag on, got fined. Contacted them by email and they looked at my history, tagging on and off daily. Accepted it was an honest mistake and cancelled the fine.

Worst part was getting pulled up on a crowded LUAS and everyone hearing you didn't pay, embarrassing😕

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590640#Comment_121590640

But detained by who?. I don't often go on the LUAS but I have seen the scenario I wrote while I've also seen ordinary people who made honest mistakes in forgetting to tag on or who were running late and just jumped on to chance it being co-operative.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590893#Comment_121590893

Police.

But they need to be called by LUAS staff. Fare Dodgers just walk off tram, past LUAS staff, well before police arrive.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590607#Comment_121590607

I've also seen the situation where Anto gives a fairly obviously false address, that Anto knows is false and the inspector knows is false, but they go through the ritual and everyone gets on with their day.

Funnily enough, we went through a phase of getting the fines sent to the house here, about one a month at one stage, to an unknown name at our address. That hasn't happened for a while now.

757TFFIU

One of the oddities of the Luas Bye-Laws, which I've always found unusual, is that 'authorised officers' do not have any clear power of detention.

https://luas.ie/luas-byelaws.html

Legally a passenger is required to provide their name and address if found to be travelling without a valid ticket, but if a passenger decides to be a total plonker and walk off at the next stop, they can't stop them from leaving. By comparison, the Dublin Bus bye-laws do enable their staff to detain somebody until the Gardai arrive as below:

58 (a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

58 (b) The person aforesaid shall on the request of the authorised person remain in the company of the authorised person pending verification of the name and address.

58 (c) Where any such person refuses or fails to comply with a request under paragraph (a) or (b) of this Bye-Law or following such request such person gives a name and address which the authorised person has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading, such person may be detained by the authorised person until the arrival of a member of the Garda Síochána. 

(https://www.dublinbus.ie/policys-and-procedures/dublin-bus-bye-laws)

There is, obviously, extensive CCTV on trams and platforms so it can be evidenced that a passenger wouldn't co-operate, but whether Transdev would come after them for the sake of €100 (or €45 if paid within 14 days), considering the time and money involved in seeking prosecution, I've genuinely no idea.

There's been numerous occasions I've witnessed people walk away from 'authorised officers', and they've been shouted at to come back or followed down to the end of the platform, but that is where the following stopped.

There is a high level of fare evasion on Luas, and Transdev do not appear to have developed an ability to control it. Like others, I've witnessed people state they've no I.D. and give blatantly fake addresses which have just been accepted (one in the recent past was 12 Cardboard Street!), being issued with a standard fare, and then being allowed to continue their journey. In fairness, Transdev seem to have tried various methods of controlling it over the years - including asking to take payment on the spot (which the Luas bye-laws enable them to do, but all a person had to do was say they didn't have their card on them). They went through a phase of trying to radio in people's names and addresses (presumably somebody in the control room was busy searching the electoral register or something). This was a bit dodgy, as staff were busy barking names and addresses over a radio for all to hear, so arguably a GDPR issue. They went through a phase of using staff in plain clothes - more effective, but didn't seem to stop the issue.

It does, however, seem to be the case that if someone is completely obstreperous and decides to walk off, that's the end of it.

By comparison, the method used on Edinburgh Trams is more effective - there's a conductor on every tram, who walks up and down the tram constantly checking tickets. Buy your ticket on the platform prior to departure, or it's the onboard fare of £10. Simple, but as a regular visitor to Edinburgh, I've never seen anybody actually fare evading on their trams, because they know they'll get caught on every tram.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121590840#Comment_121590840

Yep, I had something similar happen years back, did this and they let me off.

Fines should really be for deliberate fare evaders, not commuters who have a history of tagging on and off daily and made an honest mistake.

I actually had a Luas fine arrive to my house two weeks ago in someone elses name. Someone used a false address which just happened to be my address. Really annoyed me!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595769#Comment_121595769

I actually had a Luas fine arrive to my house two weeks ago in someone elses name. Someone used a false address which just happened to be my address. Really annoyed me!

My suspicion when this happened to me was that it wasn't just random. It was given by somebody who knew the house and the address - a friend of one of the occupants most likely.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121595906#Comment_121595906

That's what I was thinking alright, my address isn't just something you'd pluck out of the air if you weren't familiar with the location.

It's only the two of us living here so my thoughts were perhaps a friend of one of my neighbours who just stuck a different number on the front of the neighbour's address.

I actually got so annoyed by it I was searching the name on the fine on Google/Facebook/linkedin to see if I could find who they were. It then dawned on me that the name could be fake too (probably a little bit more unlikely though if they showed ID)