House does not need planning?

JonathanAl

Hi Folks,

Here is a link to a small modular transportable house on donedeal. https://www.donedeal.ie/houses-for-sale/house/35571834

Been in contact and the lady says no planning is needed as its small ! Just keep quiet about it she says! She actually quoted to me that 40m2 is allowed under law and hers is only 37m2. I pointed out that as far as I recalled this was for an extension to an existing dwelling only. There are also many other issues needed to comply with planning. I cannot see anything that produces sewage not requiring planning. She persists and has lied over other things,I have come to the conclusion that these are cowboys willing to say anything in order to sell. Is it possible I am in the wrong here?

elperello

You have identified enough red flags to stay clear.

Tow

20k on Aliexpress and half again on some other Chinese sites.

zg3409

These are cowboys as are most people f these crowds. Probably does not meet insulations regulations, fire regulations, electrical regulations, minimum room sizes etc. May cost a small fortune to heat.

As you say you need sewage and power and water etc.

They will be impossible to sell in the future but if in place 7+ years with no complaints they can't force you to remove it.

I am not sure how durable these would be in Irish weather with sideways rain and strong winds.

Lots of people are installing these on their land and renting them out or for family members to live in. If you are spending 1000 per month on rent it may be worth the gamble.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058329036/house-does-not-need-planning

Absolutely requires planning.

https://www.thepodfactory.ie/modular-home-planning-permission/?amp=1

mickdw

Planning is required. No question about it.

You are correct, the 40 sqm refers to extensions only.

Planning is required for any non connected unit containing a bedroom.

There are exemptions for garden rooms but not for anything with a bedroom when it is not an extension to an existing dwelling.

hello2020

This shows what is wrong with housing market...when someone wants to have a roof over their head with their money system doesn't allow it as banks will lose the business!!! In

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121555838#Comment_121555838

They could always apply for planning. It's not huge money specially seeing as the design is already done.

hello2020

If planning was easy to obtain we would not have this artificial home less crisis ...

Emblematic

Although, technically, planning is required, how easy is it to do this under the radar so to speak and make the seven year mark at which point you can't be forced to remove the structure

hello2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121555856#Comment_121555856

We could see why planning would not be given when CEO of the country doesn't believe in house price to go below certain level!!

Planning process in the current setup is a tool to create housing crisis not resolve it...

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121555926#Comment_121555926

Is it not a multitude of factors ...like:

- the fallout from the collapse of the building and banking sectors

- demand did not stop during this time

- building ramps up, but output is way below demand, which is actually increasing with the demographics of the country and inward migration

- covid comes along and building all but stops again, then picks up at a level below what it was prior to Covid, until early 2022

- during this time, demand continues to grow, as does the population

It will take ages to solve this...just like it took a long time to create it

This is not a planning crisis, nor has planning caused it. Where there is more demand than supply you will have a problem, be it concert tickets for concerts or Aldi specials. With housing, the problem will be slow to resolve, but it will be resolved.

But back to planning, without a planning process, a general free for all would just create more problems. Short term solutions won't fix a legacy or chronic problem that was over a decade in the making.

People should have to get planning for a pre-fabricated home in their garden. Businesses selling these should not be able to market them as not requiring planning permission.

Sonic the Shaghog

Like TBF they are lovely looking yokes but all id worry on is realistically how long will they last? Are you there in 20 years having to scrap it cause the arse is rusting outta it?

SuperBowserWorld

People will have to get planning permission for an erection before they have any kids the way things are going. 😁

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556275#Comment_121556275

Well if you got 20 years out of it, wouldn't you be happy out? Many could be spending €18K annually on rent, so 2 years use of this and you could be breaking even.

We're going to see a lot more of these.

Bass Reeves

If as @Tow says you can buy off Ali Express or other sites for less, it would be worth the effort of sorting planning if possible. Pay back time would be very short then

hello2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556250#Comment_121556250

This thinking or mindset is holding back Ireland...

ever wonder why most populous countries in the world does not have the housing crisis but a tiny population of 5 million needs years to resolve housing issue????

Why there r no high rises allowed when New York is building it for over a century!!

Need some lateral thinking here !!! Housing is an artificially created problem to benefit some !!

other sectors like food production , car production is able to meet demand despite all the issues n growing population as listed above, since it's out of local govt reach !!

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121557682#Comment_121557682

That's not a mindset, it's the reality. I am not saying I support everything that has happened but you are over simplifying the problem and solution.

You cannot equate the production of cars or food to that of housing. If you have the raw materials, you can manufacture 24/7 to meet demand. With housing you just cannot.

However, even the slickest of supply chains can grind to halt if key components are not available. Do you recall the issue in car production with the semiconductor shortage and the impact that had on new car pricing and stock? It took a long time to get production ramped up to meet demand.

In Ireland, we had a succession of problems or challenges that caused the housing shortage. Not all of them were controlable and not every country in the world had the same economic crash we had.

Building massive high rise with no supporting infrastructure, like roads, schools, open spaces would be counter productive in the long term. Having loads of second homes in peoples gardens is not sustainable either. Where do kids go to creche/ scchool when local creches/schools are already full?

Anyway, I doubt we will agree on much relating to the complexities of housing supply, and how development has to look far beyond just building housing units.

hello2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121557807#Comment_121557807

Agree with u on oversimplification part but I think we have linked house building to everything else like roads, schools, park , hospitals, traffic etc which are all different objectives . Ever wonder why there is no single high rise allowed on the island like Singapore or new York?

Buildings will be exempt from planning permission once the floor area is limited to 25 square metres.

It cannot be lived in.

CramCycle

Its basically a mobile home, nothign wrong with living in it but you need planning. Whether you get away with it or not is down to your neighbours. Our neighbour efrected one and I want to report it as its an eyesore but my name will be on the complaint and I just don't want the hassle off someone I live beside for the rest of my life.

If its not in anyone direct eyeline, and not easily seen from the road, it is worth a punt.

Sonic the Shaghog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556714#Comment_121556714

Ya I get ya. I was looking at them before only thing I was thinking, you pay 30k but realistically you need a concrete foundation laid, then you need a septic tank out the back , water connection, esb connection etc. You may need a site depending on your family circumstances and then various solicitors and fees to council etc.

Wonder what you'd be looking at to have it live in ready.

Then possibly another 30k in 20 years, along with the connections again. Don't forget the disconnecting the old one and disposal. Plus the up rooting if you've kids and possessions to be moved and sorted while the new one is placed then if you've no family to crash at you've hotels etc.

I suppose you'd still have the septic tank and foundation that would be something. But say you intended to live in one forever. If at 30 you buy one, you could easily be looking at 4x 30k purchases in a lifetime.

Hard to know. What would ya reckon spitballing, much change from 160/170k over a lifetime?

Wondering now if you could get them treated for rust and that before purchase or even get in under it yourself.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121556739#Comment_121556739

Even if you get planning permission for a home in your back garden you won't be able to use these as they don't meet building regulations for a residential property. There are log houses that meet building regulations but they cost the same as traditional materials. There is a reason why building regulations are high for residential use, safety and efficiency.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121557682#Comment_121557682

its a population crisis not a housing one.

Do you want to live in a country that has no planning laws, regulations or standards ? Because I sure don’t. I don’t want to be in an area where people are putting modular homes caravans and other assorted eyesores in gardens and calling them ‘homes’ ffs.

As regards the OP the hassle of power, sewage etc. just red flag all over it.

Kaisr Sose

Excuse the silly question, are these old shipping containers?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558093#Comment_121558093

They measure 6.3 x 5.9 metres so wpuldnt be shipping containers.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121557995#Comment_121557995

I'd be thinking they'd be most attractive as short term solution for people/ couples who need accommodation and are saving at same time for deposit on a more regular house. Piggybacking on services already in place.

They shouldn't be part of a solution to rental/ housing needs but when people are stuck, they look at all angles. Big numbers of 'hidden homeless' - adult children living at home and looking for more privacy etc.

gossamerfabric

If planning exempt threshold was increased from a paltry 25sq. m. to even 50 then it would possibly help where residential site costs are low.

The Councils would still retain an element of control in that the land still needs to be zoned residential which is within their control so micro houses wouldn't spring up on Agricultural Land on every boreen in the county.

Something radical needs to be done because Government seems to have painted themselves in to a corner with regard to the regulations which are reasonable for permanent long term dewellings but extremely expensive to comply with to the letter of the law while more people than ever need a roof over their heads.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565410#Comment_121565410

Something radical needs to be done because Government seems to have painted themselves in to a corner with regard to the regulations which are reasonable for permanent long term dewellings but extremely expensive to comply with to the letter of the law while more people than ever need a roof over their heads.

You mean we should ignore those pesky regulations that are there for the public good? Sure why do we even need fire safety rules given that the majority of houses don't go on fire?

gossamerfabric

I don't deserve a sneering response like that. Are you like that with everybody? Would you respond to somebody in person like that? I will ignore you henceforth.

Montage of Feck

The government have painted themselves into a planning corner that is proven to bad and in the long term damaging to society. One off houses and semi-d suburbs are just toxic planning.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565503#Comment_121565503

So what kind of changes would be part of your "radical" approach to making houses more affordable given that the existing regulations are (in your view) an expensive hindrance to those wishing to get a property?

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565410#Comment_121565410

On the flipside, if these exempt 25 sq. metre buildings are such Death Traps then Government should ban them with immediate effect.

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565647#Comment_121565647

The 25sqm is not for residences but for ancillary structures. Your premise to increase this allowance to 50sqm to provide microhomes (if I understand you) is therefore faulty.

It would also be a disaster.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565410#Comment_121565410

Planning permission is for residential use regardless of the size. Building regulations are to protect people regardless of the size of home you want to make.

Rules and regulations are built on blood, do you want more blood?

gossamerfabric

The homeless are still homeless. My brother built a house using direct labour some thirty years ago which provided shelter and security. It is far from complying with current building regulations. He hasn't come down with consumption, the building is fireproof and reasonable to heat while my neighbour has his grown children in mobile homes within the curtilage of the homestead he owns. Ireland has regressed with regard to provision of shelter rather than progressed.

Those who champion the current regulations really need to revisit their position because what works in theory, certainly isn't working out well in practice.

I see I am not "on-message" so I will drop out of the discussion.

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558133#Comment_121558133

But if you look at the pictures that folds down to a smaller size, possibly container size

Any scope to put the base on wheels and call it a "caravan"?

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565824#Comment_121565824

Survivorship bias is heavy here.

gossamerfabric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565867#Comment_121565867

I agree...the Homeless pass away silently through ill health or at their own hands.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565840#Comment_121565840

It doesn't indicate what the structure is made off so it's possible that it could be shipping containers but I think it's unlikely.

Putting wheels on it or calling it a caravan still doesn't exempt it from planning regulations.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558070#Comment_121558070

There might as well be 'no planning laws'

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/build-first-ask-later-how-thousands-are-building-without-planning-permission-and-getting-away-with-it/a2037036538.html

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578972#Comment_121578972

I actually laughed at that slanted piece of reporting when I read it earlier. Typical Indo stuff in that they couldnt publish a balanced article. The ratio of refusals to grants (of retention permission) is pretty much the same as those that are refused/granted when applying for planning permission in the first instance.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580570#Comment_121580570

Here's another Indo one for you to laugh at;

https://archive.ph/RNuJy

I suppose the program would never see the light of day if the planners refused the retention planning permission for the dormer window.

Risky!

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627626#Comment_121627626

If you read the article completely it's only the master ensuite upstairs that required planning, the ground floor extension did not.

It a calculated risk, if you wait for permission its probably 6-8k in additional rental for the couple over 6-8 months. With the way building prices go a 5% increase while waiting is another 10-15k.

If permission was refused you can always take away the ensuite bedroom down the line. However you have an Bord Pleanala and a judicial review in the mean time and while the LA could enforce a demolition could it enforce a partial demolition?

IsaacWunder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627803#Comment_121627803

Never mind the article. If you look at the planning application, the extended ground floor area is 50 m sq, meaning it’s not exempt.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627855#Comment_121627855

Was that Inc the upstairs? If so the new kitchen/living area is below the threshold

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558070#Comment_121558070

In fairness our planning, regulations and standards are a bit of a joke - pyrite, mica for example!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628210#Comment_121628210

they have been since their inception.

the fact anyone can object to your application is a joke. The objector should be made show that they have a material interest in the adjoining lands, or would be materially affected by, the proposed development.

IsaacWunder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627995#Comment_121627995

It wasn’t. And even if it did include the upstairs, I am almost certain the total floor area still has to be below 40 sq/m (combined above and below ground) to be exempt from planning. In other words, if you use the maximum exempt allowance to build 20 sq/m upstairs, that leaves you with a maximum of 20 sq/m downstairs.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628334#Comment_121628334

have you a link to the application?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628282#Comment_121628282

Might make the guys spouting about how great having planning regulations / standards etc in place helps protect them etc..

How did these help when your house is crumbling around you?

Good in theory, but in practise dont work, additionally if they hinder safe buildings in a housing / rental crisis!