Saoirse should not be pronounced Seer-sha!

john9876 · 14-12-2023 7:08pm #1

The aoi, if spoken by someone with an Irish accent gives a different sound.

How do I explain that to someone in written format.

(I appreciate most people will say Seer-sha but that doesn't make it correct)

Allinall · 14-12-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326926/saoirse-should-not-be-pronounced-seer-sha

There’s no correct way to pronounce any word.

Accents differ.

Damien360 · 14-12-2023 7:18pm

Most non Irish will make a reasonable stab at Saoirse. Sadbh and Tadhg are a whole different matter.

EmmetSpiceland · 14-12-2023 7:22pm

Sair-sha or Sir-sha is how I’ve heard it most said.

There really is a number of ways it can be pronounced but, no doubt, some n’whale-gore from Dundrum will be along to tell us all how to hack it out correctly.

maude6868 · 14-12-2023 7:23pm

I would pronounce it seer sha. Saor is pronounced sare so wouldn't saoir be pronounced seer.

DarkJager21 · 14-12-2023 7:27pm

Sayoeeerseh

Spook_ie · 14-12-2023 7:32pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K9qqch4mK4&list=PLd_ydU7Boqa2hsx8swJcYaaNWwnJwi6NS&index=3

standardg60 · 14-12-2023 7:44pm

I think i'd write it sear-sha, as i'd pronounce seer as see-er

Happyhouse22 · 14-12-2023 7:45pm

https://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/Freedom

Sounds like seer-sha in all 3 dialects (which is very unusual)

dxhound2005 · 14-12-2023 7:59pm

Fukushima is pronounced Foo Koosh Ma. Stressed syllable bolded.

Archeron · 14-12-2023 8:00pm

Meadhbh says hello

maude6868 · 14-12-2023 8:00pm

Aoire, the Irish for shepherd is pronounced eera. Saoirse is pronounced the same because of the i, seer-sha which is the Irish for freedom. Saor/free or cheap is pronounced sare.

Day Lewin · 14-12-2023 8:04pm

Well, it is a triphthong. (Try pronouncing THAT!)

Meanwhile, Seer-sha is pretty close for an English speaker's effort, and will do. It's much better than some of the horrific hybrids I have come across!

Full disclosure, Irish was my first language; Gaeilgeoir family in Dublin; my accent is pure Connaught.

Badly Drunk Boy · 14-12-2023 8:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496259#Comment_121496259

Yer man's English pronunciation isn't great, never mind his Irish!

Morris Garren · 14-12-2023 9:12pm

Well-- if 'Sheaghda' is pronounced 'HAY' as it is on RTE News every so often, then 'Saoirse' might as well be pronounced whatever convoluted and obscure way you want. I kinda just gave up on the gaelgore obscurantism a while back.

HeidiHeidi · 14-12-2023 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496649#Comment_121496649

How else would you pronounce it? HAY is exactly how it should be pronounced!

OK, there's a heap of silent consonants in there, which is a bit confusing - but you don't have to look far for equal confusion in English (cough/bough/rough/though/tough)

Morris Garren · 15-12-2023 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496691#Comment_121496691

And here we go ... the Irish V English Linguistic Tennis Match kicks off. So a plague on both their houses I suppose?

HeidiHeidi · 15-12-2023 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497487#Comment_121497487

No tennis - I'd be more of the opinion that every language has its own foibles.

French (what little I managed to learn in school) has rules, and then about a million exceptions to those rules.

German has a LOT of rules, but them's the rules by and large. Suited my brain far better! And then their fondness for stringing multiple words altogether to make a new one, then flinging the verb at the very end of the sentence by which time you've forgotten how it started.

Spanish has all that guttural throat-clearing stuff going on.

Languages are great! Embrace the differences!

bnt · 15-12-2023 1:14pm

When Saoirse Ronan hosted SNL, the announcer had a decent stab at it, then Saoirse proceeded to lecture the audience on the subject through the medium of song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xCr6IQtYqk

NewbridgeIR · 15-12-2023 4:24pm

I always pronounce it SHORE SHA (a bit like Seoirse)

john9876 · 15-12-2023 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498937#Comment_121498937

Which just goes to prove that many (most) people called Saoirse can't pronounce their name properly.

Greyfox · 16-12-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500955#Comment_121500955

For me a person called Saoirse gets to give their opinion on how its pronounced but a person not called Saoirse needs to do something else with their time

SynBin · 16-12-2023 12:00pm

The same applies to most Irish people named Thomas whom I've ever met. It's not supposed to be pronounced with a 'th' sound, but rather with the 'h' silent, so therefore 'Tomas'. That's also the case with Thompson (and Thailand and thyme, too).

Back to 'saoirse': In their Irish language guide, Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Sheils state that "aoi is pronounced í" (ee).

Packrat · 16-12-2023 12:24pm

In Irish combinations of 2 or 3 Roman Alphabet vowels are used to make sounds which don't exist in English.

The spoken sounds existed before the monks adapted the Roman alphabet to write it down about 13 to 1400 years ago. Those sounds were not in the other languages this alphabet was developed and used for so couldn't exactly be matched.

Saoirse is one example. Fáilte and Sláinte are two more as is tuí which is not pronounced the same as tí.

They are broad sounds not narrow so Seer-sha is incorrect.

The actual true sounds are in between the sounds of the vowels - if we use their english pronounciation.

Many languages have sounds which don't exist in others, one of my OHs childhood languages has clicks which I can't replicate despite trying.

This is entirely normal, many words or more often names from other languages have to be adapted to make them half-pronouncable to Anglophones.

16-12-2023 12:38pm

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dxhound2005 · 16-12-2023 1:16pm

When English vowels appear in spoken words, they do not always conform to the sound produced when someone recites the alphabet. Even the letter A on its own has two different pronunciatons (by me). My A in GAA is not the same as my A in "A Big House". My E at the start of Elephant is not the same as my E in He.

So any pronunciation guide need phonetics to describe a vowel sound, or a combination of vowels. AI in Hair is not the same as AI in Hail, and there are phonetics to match those AI sounds to guide people when words are more obscure. Personal names and family names I would leave to those who own them. If there is a rule for the AOI sound in Irish names, it should apply to both Saoirse and Aoife.

Packrat · 16-12-2023 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121502827#Comment_121502827

"If there is a rule for the AOI sound in Irish names, it should apply to both Saoirse and Aoife"

It does. Aoife isn't correctly pronounced Eeeefa as most do today. Listen to an older educated Gaelgoir (I'm not one, just happen to know a good few including one with a daughter named Aoife) and how they pronounced it.

Bear in mind also that a lot of words have different spellings which are common today to even 50 to 80 years ago or whenever they dropped some of the punctuation and simplified some spellings.

dxhound2005 · 16-12-2023 5:16pm

Where there are variants, I would leave it to the families. There were 212 Saoirse, and 158 Aoife registered in 2022. And some different spelling varieties of names beginning Aoibh. It is up to them how they want to pronounce their own names.

In another discussion, people on Boards were telling families like Gallaghers and Cahills, that they were not pronouncing their own names correctly. Such arrogance.

Packrat · 16-12-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121503654#Comment_121503654

I actually agree with you. I suppose I was coming at it frim the perspective of which was the more traditional sound of the spelled word.

If someone called Hugh wants to be called "Hug" it's none of my business.

con___manx1 · 16-12-2023 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326926/saoirse-should-not-be-pronounced-seer-sha

I think your wrong. It's a name from the irish language not English.

I Worked with a guy once in Australia called Oisin. His Parents were irish australian. He had been called o sheen his whole life. Me and another irish lad were calling him Oisin and one day he went mad at us. We told him he had been called the wrong name his whole life which is true.

dxhound2005 · 16-12-2023 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121503769#Comment_121503769

Did you check how he spelled/spelt his name?

"Common anglicised versions of the name include Osian, Ossian and Osheen".

con___manx1 · 16-12-2023 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121503916#Comment_121503916

Im not sure how he spelled it but O sheen just sounds ridiculous. I told him not to go to ireland and say that or he would get more stick than he got from me and the other irish lad. I have never heard o sheen in my life in ireland.

boardlady · 19-12-2023 10:47am

I have heard 'O Sheen' frequently in Ireland in recent years. It has gain popularity from the traditional Oisin. Again, up to folks how they want to say their own name. My own name has been a bit problematic throughout my life .. would have been easier if my parents had made up a phonetic spelling of it to guide folks!

Yeah Right · 20-12-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326926/saoirse-should-not-be-pronounced-seer-sha

Rubbish.

Saor, is pronounced differently to Saoir......The former is phonetically pronounced Sair, and the latter Seer. Think of how you'd pronounce aoi in Faoi, or caoineadh or Spraoi........then add an r to the end.

Pretty weird hill to die on, to be honest, even if you were correct.

EmmetSpiceland · 20-12-2023 10:51am

Heard a dad calling for his kid the other day and he said “Seer-sha”. Happy enough to go along with that.

I’m sure we all know a Niall who pronounces it Neil. I was in school with an Odhran at one point, and he pronounced it correctly. Fast forward a number of years and I was in a sporting situation with another Odhran but he wanted to be called ‘Odd-drin’.

Not really going to argue with anyone about how they pronounce their own name.

Yeah Right · 20-12-2023 11:42am

Niall is pronounced the same as Neil/Kneel as gaeilige. though? Niall Ring etc.

dxhound2005 · 20-12-2023 12:59pm

The Nial Ring that I am aware of uses one L in his given name.

SynBin · 21-12-2023 1:26pm

I find it understandable that people might have problems pronouncing names in a foreign language (Irish is also a foreign language to most Irish people) but I shake my head (and grit my teeth) when I hear the name Thomas being mispronounced. By "mispronounced" I mean a way of saying it that contravenes both dictionary definition and what is understood to be standard in the English-speaking world (outside Ireland). It's one thing for an Irish Thomas to pronounce the digraph 'th' when referring to their own name if that's how they want to be called, but it's simply incorrect to pronounce the 'th' sound for every other Thomas outside Ireland.

For example, Paul McGinley on Sky Golf mispronounces Justin Thomas's name (he's an American golfer) even though everyone else around him says it correctly. The same applies to Thompson - Emma Thompson's name is also mispronounced by many Irish broadcasters (whatever about the general public, I expect more from people in the media).

Anthony, on the other hand, can be pronounced either with a 't' or 'th' sound. The regular pronunciation in the UK is Antony, but Anthony can be heard in the US and Australia.

My quibble is not with how particular vowels, consonants and their combinations are spoken - accents have regular patterns, at least - but rather how the intended use of many words is incorrectly interpreted. It would be wrong, for example, to pronounce 'tough' almost like 'though', while pronouncing scone as in stone or in gone is simply a choice of accent.

I don't know for certain how Thomond (as in Thomond Park) was intended to be pronounced, but suspect that it should be pronounced Tomond as it derives from an Irish name and the English 'th' sound is not found in Irish. I think Keith Wood pronounces it that way, too (and he should know).

Vita nova · 21-12-2023 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522284#Comment_121522284

"Irish is also a foreign language to most Irish people"

Irish may not be a mother tongue for most Irish people but I would definitely not describe it as a foreign language, unless of course, you're the type of person that likes to go around kicking hornets' nests.

whisky_galore · 21-12-2023 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522699#Comment_121522699

Very few people grow up in a household that speak it everyday, and it's taught at school as if it were one and it hasn't been a daily language for well over a century and a half, maybe more, for the bulk of the country. The poster isn't wrong even though some people may be triggered.

The bald fact that we as a nation are so shít at it says it all.

dxhound2005 · 21-12-2023 3:11pm

An R in front of Oisin, becomes Roisin. Does that change the rules?

StormForce13 · 21-12-2023 3:16pm

When I was younger the correct pronunciation of Conchobar always flummoxed me.

Lisha · 21-12-2023 3:23pm

What is the correct way to say Conchobar please?

TheIrishGrover · 21-12-2023 3:27pm

aoi in Caoimhìn is Kweeveen. I certainly always pronounced it Seer-sha. Saoirse is a different name than Sorcha you pronunciation Nazi 😁

https://youtu.be/zaJ2aaLwUwQ?si=MectDN5AJvO1JwlD&t=35

Badly Drunk Boy · 22-12-2023 8:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522823#Comment_121522823

The name 'Róisín' has a fada over the 'o' whereas in 'Oisín', there's no 'Ó'. The fada gives 'Róisín' a long 'o' sound.

dxhound2005 · 22-12-2023 8:42am

In English is the O in Long a Long O?

Packrat · 22-12-2023 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121522878#Comment_121522878

No, no its not "Kweeveen" As explained above its a broad rather than a narrow sound - the "eee" bit isn't correct and the W sound at the start is only in 1 out of the 3 dialects of Irish.