Can I build my own deck in the Liffey

sined

Hi All,

I own a house in Leixlip and my property borders the river Liffey. I know people say in this scenario you own the river bed to the half way point and I'm not sure if that's true or not.

I'm thinking about building a deck in the river essentially but I'm not sure if I would need permission or should I just go ahead and build it.

The property is above the dam so the water level changes quite a bit. Because of this I will either do a floating dock, or drive posts into the bed and build the deck to the highest water level.

I believe the ESB own the water but not the actual land.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

sydthebeat

doesn't seem to have hindered this guy:

https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/a-meath-man-loved-playing-in-a-river-so-much-as-a-boy-he-decided-to-build-his-house-around-it/a235220941.html

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326768/can-i-build-my-own-deck-in-the-liffey

What is the extent of your property on the land registry map? I doubt very much if ESB 'own' the water, maybe the rights to use it. But there could be other stipulations in any associated legislation that gives them a say on constructions along the watercourse.

Lumen

Isn't a pontoon functionally indistinguishable from a moored boat? You could put a rudder on it just to make sure 😀

Do you have the right to moor a boat?

edit: not all boats have rudders. For instance, a coracle.

dathi

your first port of call is to Inland fisheries Ireland and i would hazard agues they will say no or require you to do an environmental assessment

elperello

It would be classed as a development and requires pp.

artanevilla

I'd imagine you'd need permission from Waterways Ireland who manage inland waterways on behalf of the state.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493670#Comment_121493670

WI's remit only covers navigation on certain rivers that have navigation infrastructure IE. the Shannon and some of it's tributaries, the Barrow etc.

ELM327

Always easier to ask forgiveness than permission IMO.

listermint

If it was me, I'd be going hydro electrical. 😎😎😎

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491243#Comment_121491243

The state owns the water not the ESB. His house is adjacent to an ESB power plant.

@sined there' not a huge stretch above the reservoir in leixlip, careful you don't identify your exact house. Or we'll all call over to try out this new deck.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493663#Comment_121493663

Yes of course.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493651#Comment_121493651

They could object, and potentially block. But I don't think it's their decision per se.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493863#Comment_121493863

Please explain why you say the state 'owns the water'. There was some discussion about water and declaring it all in public ownership etc back in the water protests. But that's all it was afaik.

I doubt very much if the state or the ESB owns the water in the Liffey or anywhere. The ESB though likely has a legal right through legislation to use it for generation of electricity. Dating from the 1930s when the Poulaphuca scheme was developed. Just like others would have riparian rights for fishing and so on on the same water.

RoboRat

Would this be near the mill race perchance?

I had dealings with Inland Fisheries as my house is beside a small river and they had existing rights to the land. Got it sorted quickly thankfully.

I think you may encounter issues as the deck could be perceived as a hazard to canoeists if the dock goes out a bit (slim but you may need to discuss it with the Canoe Club if they paddle there). There is also a risk that it could come loose in a storm or high water and end up down at the dam causing a possible obstruction.

If it was me, I would do a pontoon style and ask for forgiveness if challenged - if memory serves me, and we fished a lot down around the mill race, the water levels can vary a lot so I think a fixed deck would be a bad idea.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493879#Comment_121493879

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking me to explain.

When you say public ownership, I presume you don't mean that in the same sense as a public company. In which case, that is state ownership. What do you think I mean by state owned? Sorry, I'm not following where the disagreement is.

Tabnabs

Jesus lads, literally two seconds on google shows the answer.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30501156.html

steve-o

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494038#Comment_121494038

Thank God that Google is always right and knows where the OP lives!

ollaetta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494038#Comment_121494038

Doesn't help the OP though as he lives outside the DCC area.

Tabnabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494081#Comment_121494081

Then it'll likely fall under the next councils remit. Either way there is precedence in law for what the OP is considering and it's a no-no.

ollaetta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494110#Comment_121494110

You might think so but it doesn't. In a previous job I had involvement with those Royal Charters dealing with lands known as the Dubin Corporation City Estate and they were specific to the Corporation. Anyway, I've just had a look on the PRAI website landdirect.ie and it appears that the entire river though Leixlip is in registered ownership. Without paying a fee you can't see to who except for the eastern portion around and south of the ESB plant which is stated to be registered to the ESB. That ownership extents to the mid-point of the river. Registered land is shown on PRAI maps outlined in red and the extent of each Folio is shown shaded pink when double clicked.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494038#Comment_121494038

Maybe you should have spent more than 2 seconds and read the first line 😉. It literally the says Council owns the River Liffey within its local authority. That has nothing to do with the OP. Leixlip is in Kildare.

That would impact the presumed rights of adjacent land owners from Island bridge to the sea.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494110#Comment_121494110

Did you read the article?

The reasons that the DCC is the legal owner of a short section of the Liffey is specific to that section.

The next council can't just claim it - the next council, isn't in Kildare either FWIW.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494020#Comment_121494020

You've mentioned above that the state owns the water in the Liffey. Can you explain further what you mean?

There was considerable discussion on related matters during the water protests with some claiming the state as in the entity of the Republic of Ireland owned all the water and it couldn't be privatised etc. Until they were reminded that water flows across international borders and were we going to send invoices to the NI Assembly and vice versa. Those people with their own wells or who harvest rainwater were also most perturbed at this concept.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494233#Comment_121494233

I mean exactly that. I'm note sure which part you do not understand. You haven't really clarified my questions above. I want to help explain, but I'm a little lost at what you are suggesting the alternative is.

The ownership of land or a waterway separately from the water that is in it goes back a long way in common law. You are granted a right to use water from your property. But only while in your possession. I mean, obviously you can't claim your right remains when it's gone on it's merry way.

Not sure what rainfall has do with anything. The water protests where is relation to the privatisation of Water services, that's a very separated issue. The discussion could get very off topic tbh.

dathi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121493863#Comment_121493863

https://www.fisheriesireland.ie/what-we-do/protection/prosecutions

have a read here

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058326768/can-i-build-my-own-deck-in-the-liffey

I know people say in this scenario you own the river bed to the half way point and I'm not sure if that's true or not.

Think we can categorically agree this isn't true anyway.

Honestly, whether it's Waterways Ireland or the county council, you will never get permission. Your best hope is build it and hope no-one notices or objects, otherwise forget it.

waterwelly

I know of a few decks built but over a smaller river.

Why not drive stakes into the bank and just cantilever it another couple of feet?

You get the same effect but less likely to be an issue for anybody.

I'm sure others in your area have built similar projects,maybe copy them.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494469#Comment_121494469

That says they have the power to enforce the Fisheries Act and Water Pollution Acts, I didn't suggest otherwise btw. It says nothing about them being a planning or development authority. There are a set planning authorities. The decision on development lies with them. An authority might request the opinion of Inland Fisheries to make their decision. Or Inland Fisheries can object to an application, but that's not the same as preventing or rejecting.

As an example, see the case below. A school in Cork, Inland Fisheries object as it may cause pollution. Council granted. IFI appealed, ABP agreed with the grant. Their objection to the school being built did not prevent the school being built. But if the school does cause population, they could still presumably enforce the pollution act and prosecute the school.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30986267.html

tabby aspreme

Fisheries would have an issue if that section of river is a spawning bed and you disturb the river bed with a development.

elperello

Building without pp is really not a good idea and it's surprising to see it recommended on this forum.

Constructing a floating jetty is an expensive job.

It needs to be engineered and fabricated off site.

Heavy machinery would have to come in over the garden and all the work would need to be carried out on the land side because I'd expect no work boats or pontoons could access the river at that location.

Having had all that outlay you run the risk of having to do it all again to remove the jetty if it is reported and you have to apply for pp which is refused.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494756#Comment_121494756

Jesus you'd wonder how anyone ran piles into water without huge equipment...

pawdee

Forget the deck. Why not go all out and build something like this instead.........

https://www.stwarchitects.com/our-work/living/private-residential/goulding-summer-house/

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494382#Comment_121494382

Kindly so point us to the relevant common law that the state called the Republic of Ireland or Éire owns all the water within. For my education.

dathi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494605#Comment_121494605

that's taken from the statute book that ifi are set up under and your example of a school impacting the quality of water due to capacity issues at sewage plant is not the same as building out into the river bed 59.— (1) Subject to this section, for the purpose of improving any fishery (whether or not the fishery is the property of IFI) IFI may do all or any of the following, namely—

(a) take fish from a fishery by any means whatsoever,

(b) implement any other measure intended to alter or regulate the stock in a fishery of fish of one or more particular species,

(c) keep under surveillance and from time to time ascertain by any means the quality of water in a fishery,

(d) alter, repair, remove or demolish any fence, hedge, tree or wall,

(e) dig, break or otherwise temporarily close, cross, extend, divert or otherwise interfere with or alter any navigable waterway, river, stream or other watercourse, bridge, tunnel, culvert, pipe, drain or other thing, and

(f) notwithstanding section 327 of the Principal Act, take materials from any river, stream or other watercourse,

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494762#Comment_121494762

They aren't making handymen like they used to.

Back in the day a few stakes, belt of a sledge,couple of planks hammer and nails.

Job done, in the pub by opening time 🙂

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494162#Comment_121494162

I know that DCC owns some infrastructure outside it's own current borders, inherited from what would have been Dublin County Council.

It's possible that DCC owns river property outside of the DCC area.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495116#Comment_121495116

You seem to be getting a lot of basic concepts mixed up. Common law is not something you can cite like an acts. And the state is not called the Republic of Ireland, either.

Are you simply trying to claim that water cannot be owned, which is getting a bit conceptual. Or do you think some body else owns it? As I said, you keep disagreeing but it’s not clear what you are saying?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496804#Comment_121496804

You stated above "The state owns the water not the ESB"

It's not really important of course but your certainty raised my eyebrows.. so either the state owns the water or it doesn't?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121494486#Comment_121494486

It is true. It's a well know concept, and it was proven by @ollaetta above who pointed to the mapping. But it only applies in cases where there is no legal title to the contrary. It’s the same as owning the road to the centreline outside your house. Which applies where it's a random road, but not where it's a private or otherwise owned road.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495322#Comment_121495322

Its possible to own something outside their LA, in the same way it's possible for the council to own a storage unit in Kildare. But in the article literally states they are the owner within their local authority. And the judgements in question, that predate the councils, identify their ownership from Islandbridge to the sea. So nowhere near leixlip, and not even all off the Liffey in DCC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121495133#Comment_121495133

Two key parts: "for the purpose of improving any fishery and" "IFI may do all or any of the following" —

That gives the IFI legal permission to do all of that. It does not given them control over development, or say that others cannot do any of that. Further down the section their power is limited in relation to dwellings.

(7) (a) Nothing in this section shall be construed as conferring on any person a power to enter a dwelling, nor...shall it be construed as conferring on any person a power to enter such a garden or curtilage.

Planning permission lies with the LA, but having permission does not overrule other laws. The case of the first page was literally a private jetty/pontoon on the Liffey. It presumable had planning permission, but ran into issues on property law. No mention what IFI thought.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496851#Comment_121496851

Because the ESB doesn’t own it. You’re just going it circles and haven’t answered any questions. It’s not important, I agree. I’m just curious what your thinking is.

Who do you think owns it?