RTO Office Mandate

_ptashek_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498586#Comment_121498586

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Flinty997

The OP came here looking for advice about what they can do about RTO. Thats been answered. Its the work problems thread.

If people want to tell us why they are unable to manage remote teams, or why micromanaging works for them. Be delighted to see that in its own thread.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121501323#Comment_121501323

Your point is valid but only in companies with robust training policies and an inclusive environment where knowledge is absorbed and passed on to new hires is evident. But what about people who just dont like each other or toxic workplace cultures where zero knowledge is passed on shared? In such places, being in the office has no tangible effect whatsoever because when you ask for help or more training, you get ignored or scowled at. Many, many workplaces are like this and the whole "everyone works better face to face and collaboration thrives" is complete bullsh!t and nothing but an excuse for companies to force people back. There are arguably lots of reasons such as renting premises etc why people have to go back but this whole "its better to learn in person" is rubbish because that doesnt apply in many jobs...

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500969#Comment_121500969

Yes, boss.....right away, boss...........best of luck in your application to be chief boot-licker, boss.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498635#Comment_121498635

An easy example is compliance with the Organisation of Working Time Act.

With a few exceptions (junior doctors, some hotel staff), employers are legally required to make sure that everyone averages less than 48 hours /week, and has 11 hours off between shifts, and has minimum breaks.

One way to do this is to make everyone use timesheets with occasional audits and penalties for people who tell lies. But that's horrible, and widely hated. Another is on-site working and limits on access hours eg the office is closed 8pm to 7am, you cannot be in outside those hours: by definition this gives 11 hours between shifts). With WFH, those natural check aren't possible. So managers need to think about what kind of checks are suitable for their industry, and carry them out. Whatever they choose to do, it's either more work for manager, or the risk of being fined for the company.

There are many other laws and industry-requirements which require checks, process steps etc. There are also things like CPD hours requirements: I know a couple of people presenting these courses who've had to adopt far stricter checks to ensure people who are virtually attending courses were engaging with the material It's all possible of course - but more, not less, work for the middle managers.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512670#Comment_121512670

Natural checks? When I worked in an office, no manager ever came by or mentioned “hey make sure you aren’t working too many hours now”. If anything, I worked longer hours when I was in an office, it’s probably a mix of my experience and age now that I know when to close the laptop and switch off.

If all these obstacles existed for WFH, where have they ever been mentioned in the past 3-4 years?

And you want penalties for people who tell lies? I’ve said it before to you, but I thank my lucky stars I don’t work with anyone like you.

Flinty997

Everything you're talking about can be done remotely and automated.

Obviously some people are locked in a mindset to do things in obsolete and inefficient ways. It's busy work.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121512670#Comment_121512670

Absolute rubbish, from start to finish.

Timesheets? What is this, 1996? Nobody has used timesheets in a quarter of a century. Meanwhile, running off a report of how long each of your staff has been online, how late they're working, what sites they've been visiting, how many emails they've sent or any other number of metrics and KPIs is literally the push of a button away. There is no need to be breathing down somebody's neck to ensure they're carrying out the work they're being paid for. Literally zero, when it can also be done electronically, but again, this makes the manager's role redundant,

There is something perverse in hiding behind "this is for the staff member's own good" as you advocate forcing them into the rat race every morning. "Your time and mental well-being are important to us, we need to make sure you get your 15 minute breaks" she says, as she rationalises imposing mandatory commutes on them of up to 4hrs per day, plus all the ancillary time losses that goes with it.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513361#Comment_121513361

That's just one example of a legislative requirement. I never said that it requires people to RTO. Just that with WFH it makes more, not less, work for middle managers.

Sure an automated report can track employee activity - but most people would say its not right to use an AI-bot to decide what to do if an employee's work patterns break the law.

I don't know what universe you're in, but last did a timesheet when I was working thru an agency in 2019. Sure I completed it online, but at the end of each week I had to print it out and get a wet-ink signature from the client.

And if your staff have a four hour commute -you've got the wrong staff. Hire local and support your own economy.

Yeah Right

"sorry, lads, Mrs O on boards thinks that Balbriggan to the city centre isn't local enough, so I'm gonna fire you all and hire a few lads from the North Strand.......for those that aren't being fired, you'll have to come into the office every day because apparently she hasn't heard of an e-signature and, again, to make sure you're getting your 15 minute breaks"

Give over, will ya....you consistently have the worst takes possible on anything related to working in Ireland. I'd say you'd fire Scrooge McDuck for being too frugal.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513524#Comment_121513524

An automated report is not AI. There are digital signatures these days. Signatures are not unique to remote working. This not extra work.

You must have hated when they invented the phone.

witchgirl26

Look some people work great when WFH, others don't. My office has an RTO but it's 3 days a week with one of them being mandatory for all to facilitate team meetings being in person.

I've had a remote manager since being in this job as he's based in the UK, while I'm in Dublin. In my work, the RTO is less about keeping an eye on people working but more that collaboration between departments (& even within the same departments) is better when done in person. As someone who has half a team in another country, I can honestly say that we do our best collaborative work when we all get together in a room twice a year. We'd do it more but the cost of flights etc. is prohibitive for it.

It is also a fact of life that some people take the mick when WFH & use it as an opportunity to do all their own bits on company time.

As for timesheets - they are still very much a thing if you work in some of the professional services firms where there is billing to clients involved. Big 4 accounting you had to account for your day in 15 min blocks.

Flinty997

Time sheets are not unique to remote working. They are just part of normal working and billing.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121514023#Comment_121514023

Automated reports cannot decide what to do about themselves. Any fool can run a report (and many do).

The extra work for managers is deciding what to do about what it shows.

If you think that all employees do what they're supposed to do correctly and on-time, with little or no supervision, then you are delusional or perhaps just very naive.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518717#Comment_121518717

Agreed. Doesn't matter if they're paper based, online or cloud based, they absolutely are in regular use.

But according to the aptly-named Yeah Right

Nobody has used timesheets in a quarter of a century.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518795#Comment_121518795

Your trust issues with employees is quite worrying.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518795#Comment_121518795

as a manager of online resources (headcount in a task delivery system) I developed reports that allocated different tasks to different people/s or group/s based on skillset and sla. You don't need a middle manager to micromanage task assignment or "what to do", all the time. It can absolutely be automated. In a lot of cases.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121518917#Comment_121518917

We also have systems like that.

But you get managers constantly trying not to use them, struggling to cope as a result, then inventing some alternative which is far worse than the existing system.

thomas 123

Could be looking to cut back on staff - easy way to shift a few people on.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519248#Comment_121519248

Definitely a tactic that being used..

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513524#Comment_121513524

Wet-ink?? You have just completely obliterated any point, however weak, you were making with that horrendous and wan*y corporate term. I thought that term was only used by senior managers or directors trying to sound important. Signed is the word you are looking for.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121519248#Comment_121519248

Yes, thats happened in my job where they want people gone so they take away their wfh privelege, and it does work since lots of wfh jobs exist so people move on. The problem is, experienced and knowledgable people take their skills with them when they leave, and the company are left with new, inexperienced staff and a long time to wait before they get up to speed. In a way, they are shooting themselves in the foot just for a minor short term gain but i doubt they care too much about such things.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500868#Comment_121500868

This - whoever pays the piper, calls the tune.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121513361#Comment_121513361

Maybe try setting your own business, develop something others will pay for, look for customers and chase getting paid etc. Then employ others and worry about getting enough work to pay them and so on. 7 days a week job, long hours etc.

Your views might change, just saying!

Flinty997

In effect, they made a digital system, then hobbled it with a paper based authentication.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521312#Comment_121521312

In fairness it's mostly places with middle managers and HR departments that have these weird processes and mindsets.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521189#Comment_121521189

In the OPs case that would mean that they only want to get rid of the people who live closest to the office.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521517#Comment_121521517

Mindsets like protecting the company from court cases during to compliance breaches or employee fraud?

Or do you think they do it for laughs?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121521596#Comment_121521596

I hear they are moving back to cheques and faxes with "wet ink" as best practice for fraud prevention and audit compliance.