The 2023 Graduates Thread - What's Next?
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04-12-2023 1:39pm#1
Welcome to the 2023 Graduates Thread. With the Dublin Marathon now firmly in the rearview mirror, and Jingle Bells accounted for, it seems like an appropriate time to kick off this years Graduates thread.
Over the last few years, this thread has become a tradition to provide the no-longer Novices with some further guidance as you take your next steps on your running journey. In last years version, @Lazare took the thread to new heights and turned it into a year-round enterprise, and hopefully we can continue his great work this time around. We'll have an open door for everyone though, from
NovicesGraduates to lurkers, to anyone looking for a bit of structure to progress or re-ignite their running. Come one, Come all.For our Graduates, I'm sure that marathon buzz is still fresh in the mind, and you're no doubt eager to kick onto the next challenge. Whether you're already plotting a return to Dublin in 2024, fancy some 5k "fun" for a while, or just want to keep ticking over with no firm targets just yet, this is the thread for you. We have plans for everything from 5k to the marathon, with a 6-week base plan also included.
Your Host
Firstly, a little about myself. I ran my first marathon in 2018, following the Boards Novice thread that year under the wonderful guidance of @ariana`. It was a great experience and the community here added so much to my enjoyment of the whole journey. I spent the next 12 months using the very Grads plans we'll focus on here to hit PB's all over the shop, most notably a whopping 26 minute PB in my second Dublin Marathon! Over the years I've come back to the Grads plans many times, and this year when I returned to the marathon I once again followed the Grads Marathon plan, and came away with another nice chunky PB. So, I can vouch for these plans 100%. They work!
My running philosophy is to train sensibly, and consistently. Build steadily and sustainably week after week, month after month, year after year.. There's no one session or run that's a magic bullet to progress - just keep showing up, keep chipping quietly away and you'll make giant strides. This approach will see you re-assesing any limits you think you have in terms of PB's or weekly mileage, but we'll build gradually. The Grads plans mesh well with this philosopy. There's plenty of tough sessions in there, but there's also plenty easy miles - you can't go hard every day. Nor should you. I see loads of promising runners who can't figure out why they are not getting faster times despite training so hard - in most cases they are simply overdoing it on their easy days. I know @MisterJinx talked a lot about easy being easy and I'll keep banging that drum. It's the key to progress.
The Graduate Plans
These plans were developed in 2016 by a well-respected runner and coach who still posts here on occassion, most recently I believe under the name @E.coli. You can find the plans here:
The paces you should use with these plans are determined by the Tinman calculator, which you can find here:
Just pop a recent race time into the calculator and check out the related paces in the "Training Paces" tab. We'll talk more about the various pace terminologies as we progress.
And You?
It would be great if you can give a quick re-introduction and catch us up on what you've been doing since Dublin, and any upcoming goals you might have by answering the following questions:
1) Have you been up to much since since Dublin?
2) What's next on your agenda?
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
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Delighted to see this up and running, with an absolutely fantastic mentor at the helm.
You guys are in great hands.
It really is a perfect stepping stone from the Summer you've all had, and as Mr.G says the plans are absolutely superb.
Everyone who follows them improves as an athlete, without fail.
So join in and take yourself to the next level.
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Ah, delighted to see this up and running again and with an amazing mentor as well!
Any graduate (recent or not so recent!) will get the best of advice and mentoring here.
@Mr. Guappa, along with many others, has proven over and over again that improvement awaits any runner willing to commit to them (and the paces 😉). The plans hit a balance of easy and hard running allowing runners to layer on speed and endurance in a consistent, sustainable way.
Good luck to all.
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Great stuff @Mr. Guappa - I shall leave the Grads now in your trustworthy hands. Very best to all the grads taking this on. I used it myself this year for my second outing and it's very well recommended.
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Yep, excellent choice. Hope the mentor and mentees have a long and fruitful sophomore year. 😉
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Thanks @Mr. Guappa for taking us on ! Much appreciated.
1) Have you been up to much since since Dublin?
Just easy running, and not much mileage. Maybe 12 miles p.w. on average ? I was lucky to make a quick enough recovery from the marathon, but I've been busy so just haven't had a huge amount of time for running.
2) What's next on your agenda?
I'm going to start the base plan on Monday and then all going well tackle the 5k-10k plan. I've also signed up for DCM 2024. I haven't done any speedwork in years, so I'd really love to get my 5k time down to where is was pre-Covid and then see about taking a bit more off it. I'm actually really nervous about racing and going eyeballs out, which is mad because I used to love racing. I'm planning on going to the gym at least once a week (twice if I can find the time) and also including a (recovery) swim. I'll be on a team for a tennis league during early Spring as well, which will involve a few hours practice during the week and a match on Sundays.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
He's bringing a new tennis racquet....oops.
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Thanks from me also @Mr. Guappa. I've been waiting for this and am very appreciative that it is up and running again, I had been meaning to write my reply earlier but things got in the way.
1) Have you been up to much since Dublin?
I had a rest for a couple of days and went back on the Wednesday with an easy 10k and then easy runs every other day and HM distance lsr the weekend after. I also did my first parkrun in just over a year and was only 15 seconds off my previous pb.
I was also diagnosed with COPD (stage 1) at a recent hospital visit and am on an inhaler (once a day) for it. I am still trying to work with and understand it. But it probably does explain my very heavy and loud breathing when I was doing the parkrun. I also did the Beleek 10k last weekend and got myself all worked up with that one. I went out way too fast on the first km and then started to panic about my breathing and did a few walks.
2) What's next on your agenda?
I have another 10k in Tyrone this weekend and will “try” to be more sensible for this one. I might either do a parkrun on Christmas day or a 10k on the 26th that I have done for the past 2 years.
The next big runs will start with the Tony McGowan HM Feb 18th. I have also signed up for 3 marathons starting with Limerick and finishing up with Dublin.
Regarding training, I actually came across the Myles Splits plans when I started to progress from 5k to 10k a couple of years ago and have been using it since then.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
To be honest I have too much already…. Maybe a renewal to Strava and Run with Hal app but I’m not sure if they are worth it.
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Welcome aboard @Bungy Girl. Those few light weeks post-marathon will have done your recovery the world of good. The legs, body, and mind need a quiet period every now and again to recover, recharge and get ready for the next challenge.
I like what you've laid out there as a plan for the next while. Very similar to what I've in mind myself actually - I'll hopefully start into the 6-week base plan the week before Christmas, and then follow that up with either a 5k or HM block - I'm still weighing those options in my head. Great to hear you're adding in gym and swimming too - all sounds very sensible. I have grand goals around supplementary S&C myself every January but they invariably fall by the wayside by Spring - maybe next year! The only word of caution I'll sound on that front is to be careful not to add too much too soon - running, gym, swimming and tennis - that's a lot of plates to be spinning if you're not used to it.
The great thing about 5k's and shorter races is that the recovery is much quicker afterwards, so you can race a few in a short period. I love that you're already steeling yourself to go "eyeballs out" 😀, and the quicker, speedier sessions in the 5k plan will have you ready to embrace the pain when the time comes 🙂. The good news is that with the marathon block in your legs, you have a great base there to tap into with the right training.
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Thanks for joining in @T-Bird. Sorry to hear about the COPD diagnosis - I'm sure that came as a bit of a shock. I can't claim to be a medical expert, but it strikes me as something that might impact your running, so hopefully it's not too impactful and it's safe for you to continue running.
On the running front - those are a lot of goal races to fit into one year. The three marathons, in particular, feels like (at least) one too many. It's doable of course, but you're sacrificing peak performance in each of them really. Common wisdom would be to have one "A" goal target race per year, a slightly less important "B" goal race at a different stage of the year. You can of course add in the odd non-goal race here and there as part of a structured plan in building up to those main races. If you're just bouncing from race to race without adequate recovery then your progress is likely to plateau, and injury risk is also heightened. Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but it just reads like you need to prioritise one race, and then think about building the rest of your year around that.
With the 10k at the weekend, I'd suggest trying to run a negative split - i.e. starting out handy and picking up the pace as the miles tick by. It's not a strategy that suits everyone, but I've ran all my best races in that manner - it's also a heck of a buzz to feel strong late in a race and passing out those who started too fast.
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Hi, I've a couple of questions about the 1st week of the base plan please. Starting it tomorrow and all going well hope to run 6 days. I'll need to change the days of the runs around a bit, like I did with the marathon, just to fit in with my schedule. I'll be doing the progression (easy to MP) run on Tuesday. Presume MP is my average pace for DCM and I should finish the last 10-15 mins of the run at that pace ? And for the 10 x 100m strides later in the week, I don't think my watch will be accurate for a short distance so will I just aim to build up to fast but not sprinting during each stride ? I think my biggest problem is going to be pacing overall as I need to slow down quite a bit ! Thanks a mil.
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Hi @Bungy Girl. I just looked back at your DCM report and it seems like you had a pretty strong run, so yeah, your DCM pace should be fine to use for the Marathon pace here. No need to get too hung up on these paces though - you're looking to finish at a comfortably strong effort, pushing a little bit but not out of control. I usually break the 60 minutes into 6 x 10 minute chunks, starting out at a very easy pace and getting a touch faster in each 10 minute block until I'm in or around MP for the last 10 minutes. It should feel like a reasonably strong effort by the end, but your not killing yourself by any stretch.
I'd never use my watch either for strides - I'll use roadside bollards, notable trees, or ESB poles as landmarks and go off them - no need to stress about being too exact. For example, if it's ESB poles, I'll gradually accelerate to the first one, hold that 80-90% speed to the second pole, and gently decelerate to the next pole. Alternatively, you can go by time, so 20-30 seconds broken into 3 equal parts - maybe glance at the watch for the first one to get your bearings, then ignore the watch thereafter.
Here's a useful explainer for anyone wondering what the hell strides are:
Strides are a running drill which will get you used to picking up the pace on tired legs without leaving your legs wrecked! You can do the strides in the middle or towards the end of your run, preferably on a flat stretch of even road. These are not intended to induce fatigue, so allow for full recovery after each before attempting the next one. Jogging back to the start after each stride should allow sufficient recovery, but take longer if required.
Each stride consists of 3 equal parts:
- controlled acceleration
- sustained speed of up to 90% of your max speed
- controlled deceleration
The important thing is to concentrate on maintaining good running form; stay relaxed and run tall, watch that the shoulders/neck aren’t being hunched/tensed up! I find if my jaw and fists are loose and not tense then the rest of my body follows suit. Remember these are not a sprint, you should feel in control!
Best of luck with the plan!
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Perfect, thank you. I'll report back at the end of the week !
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1) Have you been up to much since since Dublin?
Not much to be honest. I knew I was taking a week or so off after the marathon. But I was so busy with work in Nov that I couldn't make my weekday club training and managed to get a couple of parkruns done. This month work has eased a little and I'm trying to make the track when I can. But I dunno, the legs still feel tired and it doesn't feel easy.
2) What's next on your agenda?
I don't know! Mentally I wasn't in the frame of mind to sign up for DCM24 straight after, I applied for the lottery and didn't get it but I'm relaxed about it, I'm sure I'll pick up an entry next summer. But otherwise I haven't signed up for any races. Maybe over Christmas or in the New Year I'll get a surge but there's nothing jumping out at me at the moment.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
If he could bring me some motivation and an entry for the New York Half marathon that I missed out on in the lottery that would be great.
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Welcome @Sunny Dayz. I think it's perfectly normal to find yourself in a bit of a lull post-marathon, especially if it's your first, or one that's been a focus for a particularly long time. The marathon is just such an all-consuming goal that it can take a while on the other side of it to rediscover that motivation and fire again. The dark evenings and wet/cold days don't make it any easier to get out when motivation is low (speaking from experience here)! It's also no great harm (in the long-term) to have a quieter period after a big block of training, so don't stress it.
Motivation will ebb-and-flow over time, for everyone. The key is to try and establish a routine which makes running a part of your everyday life, regardless of motivation. A lot easier said than done of course!! But if you can find a routine that has you getting out regularly regardless of motivation, then you are onto a winner. For some, sticking a plan on the fridge helps, for others it's running with company, with a club, or just going out every morning/lunchtime like clockwork. It sounds like you have the basis of a good routine there, between the club runs and parkrun, so if you could sprinkle in a couple of easy runs on top then you'd be going along nicely. No harm in taking it easier on those track and parkrun efforts for a while, giving your legs and fitness a chance to re-establish themselves and not upping the intensity too soon. The good news is that the motivation will come back, but you've got to give it some encouragement too 😀.
I can definitely relate to a lot of what you say about tired legs and it not being easy. I took 3 full weeks off after Dublin, partly forced due to injury, and lately I've been trying to ease back in to the running, but I am finding that a lot of the runs feel like a right slog. What had been run-of-the-mill 4/5/6 easy miles now feel never-ending. I've been down this road before though and I know it's a 1 step back/2 steps forward type of deal... once I get through this (short) phase the progress made during the marathon block will still be there and I'll be stronger than ever. Stick with it... you'll be glad you did come spring.
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1) Have you been up to much since Dublin?
I was pretty disappointed with how Dublin went and I was full of determination to get back on the horse. Signed up for a couple of things but things really haven't gone to plan!
Since I ran/walked literally half of DCM, I probably wasn't as physically sore as others were and I felt fairly decent 4 or 5 days later and started easing myself back into it. But I've been sick on and off (cold type things) almost since then, so I really haven't got into the rhythm of it at all. I ran 72Km in November, there was some weeks I ran that during Marathon training!
I did hit the magic 1000 miles for the year during November. Not something I was aiming for at the start of the year
Ran a 5K during November and found it way harder than I should have for the pace I was doing (5:24/km), but a PB for 30s me
I also did a Half marathon at the start of December, but my prep was quite poor for it. I ended up doing a 2:16, +12mins on my half PB during marathon training (although a much hillier route), but probably more disappointingly +4 mins on a similar hilly route prior to marathon training. But as I said, prep was quite poor so not overly disappointed
Separate to feeling poorly, I definitely don't have the same drive and determination I had for marathon training. I guess after 4 months of going to be early to get up early, staying up later and staying in bed a bit longer is appealing!
2) What's next on your agenda?
The main thing I need to do is get back into a swing of things and get a routine going. Need to review the graduate plans to see if I think they'll suit for me.
I think I also need to shift my mindset a little. It's kind of easy to be disappointed with my current fitness compared to the middle of marathon training, but if I compare it to where I was this time last year it's a lot more favourable! I could just about run 5k this time last year, and now I'm disappointed with a half marathon performance where I had poor run up to it
I have a 10k on Stephens day, I don't drink so no worries about a sore head, but I will almost certainly full of turkey so not too concerned about times for this
I have a 3/4 at the start of March, so will need to get back into a plan fairly quickly.
And of course DCM24, seems a long way away but I'm sure it will come around fast enough.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
I'm not actually sure, I already have a new pair of runners that I got on sale so fairly set for that. Would probably like to sort myself out some space and equipment for more S&C, but no concrete plans.
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The first week of the Base Building went more or less to plan. I got 6 runs done and slowed way down for the easy and very easy runs (forced myself to breathe through my nose only!). Total miles 29.5. I enjoyed the progression run (did that on Tuesday) and also the strides today. LSR went well on Thursday too. Apart from the running I got to the gym twice and did a short swim, 3 hours of tennis total and a short outdoor yoga session. I'll be finishing up work on Wednesday for 2.5 weeks so no excuses at all to get everything in.
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Hi @witnessmenow, great to have you on board! Apologies for the delayed response, I've been pretty busy with Christmas shopping and the like (and the occassional run!). Don't worry... 72km was more than enough miles for November, I just looked back and I only ran 55km the November after my first Dublin Marathon, and then I went from strength to strength in the next 12 months.
Despite the diappointment of run/walking DCM, it will still have taken a lot out of you. Probably more than you realised. It takes a bit of time for the body to recover, so I wouldn't be at all disheartened with the HM result.
It's fantastic that you passed the 1,000 mile mark and claimed a 5K PB. Congrats on both counts. I'm glad you called out the big picture of your progress over the past 12 months - progress won't always be linear, sometimes we take giant leaps forward, then other times any progress is in small increments or takes forever, but as long as the graph is generally trending up and towards the right, then things are going well. Keep at it (in a sensible way) and this time next year you'll be looking back on another 12 months of monster progress!
Do check out the Grads plans.. they have worked for many in the past. But whatever plan you decide to follow, I'll be here to advise as best I can.
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Good stuff @Bungy Girl, that's an excellent week. Great to read that the easy and very easy runs were paced appropriately 😀. I started into the Base Plan myself this week with the Progression run today and I also really enjoyed it - just felt great to pick up the pace a little bit without being overly taxing. It's not super important at the moment as most of the running is at an easy-to-steady pace, but as the miles increase and the sessions get harder, it's important to try and keep some separation between the harder days (at the moment Wednesday and Sunday on the plan). Again, I understand it's hard to fit everything in, and at the moment it's not super critical, just something to bear in mind going forward.
Fair play on all the extra activities - you are putting me and my 5 half-hearted minutes of foam-rolling every night to shame 😊
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Firstly and most importantly, Merry Christmas to @Mr. Guappa & fellow Class of '23 graduates. May 2024 bring you lots of PBs and no injuries!
I had a resonable week, all things considered. 5 runs instead of the planned 6 but not bad for the week before Christmas! The wind was a big factor for most of the runs (today I was running to stay still at one point) but I think my HR is (finally) responding to the slow running now as I'm getting fewer spikes and it seems easier to control. I enjoyed the 'speedier' sessions this week. The moderate run ended up being a progression of sorts but the HR and the effort seemed about right. I'm not sure I got the threshold pace right for the last section of Saturday's scheduled run but it blew off a few cobwebs anyway.
All my tennis was cancelled because of the wind but I did get to the gym once and also got one short swim in. Total miles this week 21.
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Half way through the base building plan and just over 33 miles logged this week over 6 runs 😀. Mainly easy miles as prescribed but also a progression run and some hard intervals. Nice to feel a bit speedy for a change (if only for 5 x 1 minutes 🤣). Got to the gym once and did a short swim after but that was it in terms of cross-training.
Looking forward to the 2nd half of the plan and then tackling the 5k/10k plan.
HNY to all !
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Happy New Year everyone!
@Bungy Girl - that's some great consistency you've got going. I love to see it. I'm two weeks into the base plan and I'm really enjoying the Wednesday moderate/steady/progression runs in particular. Finally feeling a little bit of the fitness start to come back, which is great.
How is everyone else getting on? Anyone else out there looking to join in now that a shiny New Year is upon us?
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Happy New Year everyone, sorry I'm late to to the party.
1) Have you been up to much since since Dublin?
Thankfully I have been able to keep up a good level of training since DCM. Getting out 3/4 times per week as well as some strength training in gym. Ran a half in December and got a PB of 1:47 (previously 1:53) which I was delighted with. Managed to get in over 30km between Christmas and New Years which included a 16km run too.
2) What's next on your agenda?
Hoping to run a half in May/June (venue to be decided still). Looking to maintain the number of runs per week mentioned above in addition to S&C and putting the learnings from DCM in to use. I have been looking at a couple of Hal Higdon programmes for the half, not sure how to go about the training fully though as I am at a decent distance still on long runs each week (1 run each week over 10k) I see a lot of programmes start off with long runs of approx 6/7km so not sure what is best for me really.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
Few nice bits, t-shirts, shorts and some fuel!!
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1) Have you been up to much since since Dublin?
Not a whole lot! I had some knee, hip, calf issues going into DCM and was determined to complete it regardless of knowing it meant there'd be some consequence. Got it done but have been nursing the legs since. Went to the physio a few times, got and did exercises, some cycling, yoga, stretching and light running to try keep my sanity. Trying to keep it very easy, although I did a couple of parkruns and I struggle to not race these.
2) What's next on your agenda?
I'd love to get back to doing a plan. I miss the schedule as it was something to stick to and it had a goal. I don't want to rush into something and have a set back with my recovery so I'm thinking to modify the base plan to include cycling in zone 2 to ease the impact on the legs. I want to include some strength and conditioning too as this should help with injury recovery and prevention. I'm still on my Christmas break/binge and am aiming for Monday as the start of it.
3) What running-related items is Santa bringing?
Nothing. I went crazy buying stuff during the marathon plan so am stocked up for the next year!
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Hi @Louis 2018 ! Congrats on the big HM PB, great to see such improvement.
From what you describe above, I'm guessing that you were looking at the Hal Higdon Novice HM plans? Thing is, you're not a novice anymore! I'd definitely recommend you take a look at the graduate plans in the OP of this thread - the 6-week base plan might work as a tester to see how you get on with them and it will set you up with a nice base to build on for your targets later in the year. I know it's an extra day than the 4 per week you mention, but it's mainly easy miles and designed to be not too taxing.
You're marathon time was very similar to my debut time (4:13), and your report tells a similar tale to my first one. My pre-marathon HM time was also similar (1:54). For the next 12 months I followed these grads plans and progressed a lot, both in race times and just general running confidence. So, there are plenty more PB's to come for you with a bit of sensible training.
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Good stuff @bazwaldo - that sounds like a sensible approach to take as you return from injury. The comeback trail can be frustrating, especially at the start when it feels like you've lost all the fitness that was built up, but keep persevering and after a few weeks you'll notice the fitness start to come back. The fitness gains of the marathon block are still there, you just need an extra bit of patience to unlock them again. Don't be afraid to dial back the pace to keep the efforts feeling easy if required.
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Thanks for the reply. I'll take a look at the base plan over the weekend. I'm keeping the mileage up as best as I can, have a couple of races in the next 2 months - 8k & 5k so hoping to hit a half programme after them.
Yep was looking at the novice programmes with Hal Higdon but also some of the Intermediate programmes. I like how his programmes look.
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Didn't get all my planned runs in this week (got 5 out of 6 done). Total miles 27.8. Didn't make the gym either and only 1 tennis game. Combination of weather (today) and school holidays (the whole week) and a poorly OH (man flu) conspiring against me. Next week will be better ! I did have a good LSR on Thursday where my HR was steady more or less the whole time. During DCM training it would start to creep up after about 5 miles and nothing would get it to come down again. So that might be progress ?
I have great plans to include some morning yoga in my routine in the magic hour between child leaving for school and me starting work. To date I have used the time fruitfully for Wordle/Quordle/Octordle but maybe it's time to mix it up.
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Another nice week there. Missing a day every now and again is no big deal when your overall training is as consistent as yours has been lately. Maintaining a steady HR later and later into a run and not seeing the HR drift upwards is a definite marker of progress.
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A decent week with 35.4 miles logged and all planned runs done. Perfect running weather made it easier than previous weeks ! HR is still playing ball so is definitely now lower on average than it was. Yay, progress 😀. I got to the gym, did one swim, 2 short yoga sessions (at home) and 3 hours of tennis (doubles though, so not particularly taxing, not the way we play anyway 😂). Tennis league kicks off this Sunday which will mean a switcheroo of the order of runs but I should still hopefully get them all done. Fingers crossed that the matches don't go on for 3 hours. Last week of base building this week and then I might take an easy week before starting the 5k/10k plan.
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A scrappy week with just over 20 miles done. Tripped during Tuesday's run and went splat so was a bit bruised and battered the next few days. Took it easy and managed 1 yoga, 1 swim and 1 tennis practice in addition to 5 runs. I think I'll just have a random week next week and then start the Grads 5k/10k plan after that.
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