Leinster v Munster Match Thread

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121420096#Comment_121420096

Also rewatched it.

Late to this particular discussion, but that was a horrendous, error-plagued game. It was only exciting because it was close, there was poor rugby all over the pitch.

ulsteru20s

i thought the reffing was pretty good. There definitely are days he doesn’t get a card for that but at the same time its justified.

I thought some refs would have carded JOB for deliberate knock on but also would have been harsh. McCarthy got away with one clear penalty. On Murray’s break i thought Keenan might have fallen over and then tackled him from the ground.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422207#Comment_121422207

Funnily enough, I watched this earlier. I enjoy a lot of Tim Cocker's content, he's very into it and clearly knowledgeable. I can't agree though that this was a great game. Intense, sure. Some excellent defense from both sides, but plenty of mistakes in attack again by both sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sacWiffUmgo

StormForce13

I watched all four provinces play yesterday and for me the Glasgow - Ulster game was, by some margin, the best in terms of quality and entertainment.

Hopefully both sides will field their strongest XVs in Cork next Friday in which case we may be in for a real classic.

As for the slugfest in the Aviva, apart from the usual suspects (other than Coombes who is going backwards) I was very impressed by Ahern, who seems to have quite a lot of the O'Mahony dog in him.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422275#Comment_121422275

I think most people would agree it was error strewn. The only noises I've heard of it not being enjoyable have been on here tbh; most seemed to think it was entertaining fare. (I'd again draw the distinction between performance and enjoyment / how good a game it was)

Personally not a fan of Tim Cocker and Eggchasers. Thought they were good years ago (Phil in particular) but they've had some pretty unsavoury interactions on Twitter. JB seems to be pretty toxic.

But fwiw, his first sentence is "now that was top class club rugby". I'd be inclinded to agree there in terms of spectacle / enjoyment.

Dave_The_Sheep

100% in agreement on JB. Knob.

Not tarring them all with his brush though.

pickarooney

Just saw the game earlier. So there were a few handling errors, so what. Still a very good game.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422256#Comment_121422256

There was no line break possible that I saw so yeah a card for the deliberate knock-on would have been harsh

Dubinusa

Doesn't Crowley look a little like Colin Farrell?

Buer

Only got to saw the game last night so had the rare opportunity to view it with far less emotion than I normally would. I can see why people thought it was a great spectacle and entertaining due to the close scoreline and the late tension but I cannot overlook how sloppy the performances were too. Jack Conan spoke very candidly afterwards about how error strewn the game was and they were disappointed with their showing. I think I counted 7 entries deep into Munster territory where possession was handed over through unforced errors:

• JOB forward pass to Henshaw inside the 22
• James Ryan spills a pass on the 22
• Ball spilled transferring it to a maul at a 5m line out
• JOB couldn't take a bad pass from Larmour when Leinster had gotten outside on a set piece move
• Joe McCarthy spilling it inside the 22 (could argue that was coming into contact as opposed to unforced)
• JGP throwing a pass to touch to close the first half
• Furlong spilling a pass on the 5m line

That's incredibly wasteful and will make for an awkward review session today. Cullen spoke about how he was disappointed with the return for the dominance of the first half (after the opening 12 minutes). The first 6 of the above all happened in the first half. There were several other turnovers/spills too, just not in/around the 22 particularly from high balls (some of those also not under any significant pressure) and Keenan with an uncharacteristic forward pass.

Munster weren't quite as wasteful and took some three pointers to keep in touch but they also had a few poor moments of handling and will be frustrated with their ruck protection as Doris turned them over three times in the final quarter as the ball came out the back of the ruck.

Lord Palmerston

I think it'll be a relatively painful review session today for a number of Leinster players.

Garry Ringrose's defence needs some serious discussion and examination. He had three awful missed tackles in the first half alone, all of which almost led to Munster tries (the first one did). He shoots up on Zebo that creates the line break for Casey's try. People will argue that's his role, and Henshaw should have been covering across, but to me, he's trying to make these 'king hit' smashes when he shoots up, and he's often just getting the timing wrong or bouncing out of contact.

He had a bad missed tackle on Crowley shortly afterwards that led to the linebreak and Archer ultimately being held up, and had another poor miss on Daly shortly after that again. The stats show he misses a lot of tackles, and I think it's become too ready made an excuse to just attribute it to the role he plays in the system etc. Some of these are just bad reads and bad execution.

I don't agree with the posters who said JVDF had a good game - I thought he was largely ineffective by his standards, and was outplayed by Hodnett. His failure to clear out Crowley when Crowley won a massive turnover in the Munster 22 (after the Porter break up the left) was inexcusable to me. Your openside should be capable of smashing a lock or a prop off the top of a ruck, nevermind a 10 (even if it's something Crowley is very good at).

Buer

In respect of performances, it was, as mentioned above, fairly sloppy. But I think some people will be fairly pleased with their showings and some very disappointed. These games count for more in an Irish selection consideration, I'd imagine. A lot of guys are up against their direct rivals for spots and will be looking to put down a marker.

With that in mind, I'd say the big winners (relative to where they were coming into the game) were Conan, Frisch, Nash, Frawley and McCarthy. Others like Doris had strong showings (more in the final quarter really) but that won't have changed where they sit in the pecking order at all.

I'd say the losers on the night were Coombes, JOB and Henshaw. Potentially Ringrose too although he had a couple of good moments in the second half.

Conan was just very solid and physical. He looked powerful in contact and, for a guy who has very little rugby in the last 6 months, was still motoring deep into the second half. I didn't expect Frawley to have the game that he did when I started to watch it. He was very tidy in the first half, breaking the line a couple of times, keeping the back line moving with some fairly accurate passing and his kicking both from hand and the tee was good. He made a couple of errors late on (spilled a high catch and kicked it away aimlessly) but he'll be generally very happy.

Frisch and Nash were real sparks in the Munster back line for a lot of the game and got involved repeatedly. They linked up well with Crowley and gave Leinster headaches. Frisch might have benefitted from not having Nankivell beside him as they haven't gelled yet so he was more in step with those around him. Nash is becoming that messy winger that Farrell loves. I'd imagine he has eyes on that Irish squad again and it's fully deserved.

McCarthy grew into the game. He became more of a force in the second half and will be fairly happy with his night's work, one spill aside. He was harshly done for a penalty inside the Munster 22 when Murray rolled it back with his hand clearly which isn't allowed and Busby whistled against McCarthy incorrectly (should still point it out to the referee though). But he was constantly irritating people at the ruck and carried hard throughout, making yards as others started to tire. Thought he got away with a shoulder charge on Ahern though (who was also good).

I thought JOB had something of a nightmare game. Knock ons (two due to terrible passes) and a deliberate slap down that could well have been yellow on another night. He looked nervous as he retreated after that; he knew he was walking a fine line. Hopefully it's just a blip as he's such reliable performer normally. Henshaw was a total non-entity, for me. Just didn't impact the game at all. His major contribution was shooting up for the try which, in turn, resulted in Ringrose shooting up (terribly) due to the dog leg Henshaw was creating. I hope reputations mean nothing and Ngatai or Osborne are given the opportunity to start in the coming weeks.

Coombes was similar to Henshaw but at least got on the ball more. He was completely nullified though, his performance culminating in the braindead penalty that ultimately led to the final Leinster try. Fortunately for him, there isn't really any other viable option at 8 for Munster (as of yet) as his form is still up and down.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422878#Comment_121422878

Yeah, Coombes looked visibly frustrated out there. He's a good player, but looks out of sorts at the moment. He was smashed backwards in defence on multiple times, and didn't really impact the game in any other way. Sheehan carries straight through him for his try too.

Nash outplayed JOB, who was guilty of forcing things a few times and just ineffective.

I was impressed by Crowley - he has that kind of cocksure quasi-arrogance you want in a 10, and is a real leader in that Munster side which is pretty incredible for a guy who is just 23.

I thought McCarthy was the best second row on the pitch. Beirne was very good and niggly in disrupting Leinster ball, but didn't really shine elsewhere. McCarthy was by far the most effective carrier of the four starting locks, the leading tackler, claimed a lot of line out ball and was incredibly disruptive to Munster's ruck and maul. Great game on a big stage for another very young player.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422878#Comment_121422878

Good post Buer. Only point would be on this:

With that in mind, I'd say the big winners (relative to where they were coming into the game) were Conan, Frisch, Nash, Frawley and McCarthy. 

I think Crowley deserves a mention in there too. Really excellent performance, I think he's really solidifying his claim to the starting Irish 10 spot. The first fixture up is a Friday night away in France, which would be a massive game for him.

An aside, but presume there's no update yet on the Ross Byrne injury?

Buer

I thought Crowley was good. Not as impressive as those I mentioned but certainly good. My post was concentrating on performances relative to current spot in the pecking order though so, as the first choice Irish outhalf, Crowley delivered.

I thought he made some errors (kicked out on the full, was stripped of the ball by Doris behind a ruck and a tad lucky with that last kick which he clearly wasn't happy with himself) but he found his attacking groove in the second half, connecting with those around him. He had one delayed pass to Nash inside that had me fooled and looking for the ball. Some really nice passing. He did freeze after the Murray break though and got caught in two minds which killed the move somewhat.

I think he looked better generally when Murray came on. I thought himself and Frawley had very similar games in terms of performance levels but it's a bigger win for Frawley because it's relative to where they were beforehand.

Neil3030

There were many positives for both sides, despite it being a bit of an error-prone game.

But the one that stood out for me was definitely Crowley. He looked like a ten-year veteran out-half. I'll remind people: he's 23. Two years younger than Frawley. Five years younger than Byrne senior and a year younger than Byrne junior.

Anyone who has dipped into the Access Munster content has known how mature a young man he is for some time now. Great to see that translate more and more into a presence on the pitch.

sydthebeat

Not looking to put the boot into ringrose, but by god that missed tackle on zebo was absolutely terrible.

posters have been talking about henshaw being out of position as ringrose was trying to shepard the carrier inside, but i dont at all agree with that. It was a simple 3 on 3, all manned up, and ringrose just made a terrible attempt at a tackle. Mainly due actually to his hesitancy in shooting.

as can be seen from this screen shot, the moment crowley passes, the two munster forwards are out of the game. Henshaw is on Scannell and nails him just as he passes. Ringrose at the point of the pass above should have been gone like a shot onto zebo, but he hesitates, and then actually takes a corner flag line as if he's in two minds whether the balls going to zebo or frisch. But JOB has frisch lined up, and both keenan and JGP are in behind to cover Nash outside.

It was incredibly well finished, but ringrose has been very badly shown up here.

letsbefair

So a world class player missed a tackle, another in his first match back was rusty. OMG

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423382#Comment_121423382

it wasnt his first game back..... 🙄

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423382#Comment_121423382

Not all missed tackles are made equal.

I'd love to see the stats for how many of Ringrose's missed tackles actually end with that phase behind the gainline. That'd tell us something about how effective his shooting is (and his missed-tackle stats are something I've defended him in the past over for this very reason).

He had a number here tho that were particularly bad tbh and clearly resulted in, at a minimum, gain line for the attack.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423395#Comment_121423395

The reference is to Henshaw, and I think that it was.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121422869#Comment_121422869

I didn't understand that penalty. The tackled player has clearly released the ball. There's no support and Crowley has hands on it. This should be play on, and Crowley simply needs to pick it up. There's no penalisable offence that I can see

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423587#Comment_121423587

really?? not sure where youre getting that from?

maybe the poster should quote the posts they are apparently replying to?

or maybe they are just making general comments in a vacuum

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423616#Comment_121423616

I'm getting it from the comma between the first part of the sentence (which refers to Ringrose) and the use of the word "another" which refers to another player in your photo who was playing his first game. If you need any more help, just ask.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423659#Comment_121423659

strange that they would refer to my post, but use a word to describe the player which wasnt attributed to me.

maybe its just projection.....

Clegg

Leinster did a bit of a job on Coombes at the weekend. He carried a lot of ball, but was met by double tackles a lot of the time. Reminded me of how we used to target Stander in these games. Identified him as the main threat and stifled him.

Munster are in a better position now as they can play through the backs far more effectively. But they're still limited up front.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423796#Comment_121423796

Coombes didn't have a good game by any means, but if he's being met with double-tackles, that's a good thing, and he's fulfilling part of his role, to cause compressions and make more space outside.

Our front-row is the big issue tho. Salanoa might make a difference there if he can get an injury free run together.

aloooof

Tbh I felt that was as close as we've come to a fully loaded Leinster team in a long time, and when you consider we were missing some starters, that's a very positive thing.

Our skill levels and handling have significantly improved in the last year and a bit.

Clegg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423837#Comment_121423837

I'm sure there is an element of using Coombes to shorten the defensive line, but I think he was also teed up at various stages to be the big carrier to make metres, but Leinster read it and met him on the gain line.

Munsters second row also struggled in the carrying stakes. Neither Kleyn or Beirne managed to be a big threat. When Munster went tight in Leinsters 22 the defence drove them back on a few occasions.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121423983#Comment_121423983

Would largely agree. Munster looked dangerous off a set play where they had it called and everyone knew their roles for the first few phases. Their moves were really sharp. Play on for a few phases and they didn't look nearly as comfortable though and ended up losing ground on several occasions. They had Leinster on the ropes after the Murray break but the indecision was clear when the ball came back and there was no time to have a structure to work off.

I think the Munster forward carrying has definitely improved in recent times but it's still lacking a one or two more guys who can really break through a tackle or punch a hole in the close exchanges and turn those situations back into go forward ball.