Planning application invalid

stibob · 13-11-2023 8:28pm #1

I'm ranging. We have had a planning application in for about 4 weeks now. I was heading out today at lunchtime and noticed the site notice had knocked over due to the wind (it was the previous day and every day since we applied). I put up a replacement immediately.

A few hours later, out architect (agent who submitted) gets a letter saying the application is invalid as the site notice wasn't visible. It was a red and orange warning overnight and into the morning. I was in the house all day today. Of all the days and time the planner decided to inspect the notice, it was the morning of crazy wind that caused lots of damage.

What grounds do I have? I know I can just reapply, but it resets the clock 4 weeks for us...and time is important. The legislation states to ensure the sign is erected, and replace it if you notice it isn't there. But I mean, I did it as soon as I noticed. Neighbours can attest to it being highly visible the last 4 weeks.

I've reached out to the planning department but didn't manage to get hold of the planner. I would hope they can just cancel the notice of invalidity...but it's just very annoying!

Penn · 13-11-2023 8:33pm

If your architect got a letter, the letter would have had to have been sent out on Friday or Saturday, so chances are the site notice was inspected late last week and wasn't visible then. So it was probably down for a few days before you noticed it today.

It's unfortunate, but there's nothing you can do.

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058322472/planning-application-invalid

No chance of canceling it.

To get a letter today, it was sent Friday. Which means the site notice was inspected on Wednesday or Thursday last week.

It’s a statutory process with a legal decision made, no way to change that now unfortunately.

Your only option is to lodge again.

stibob · 13-11-2023 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364692#Comment_121364692

Sorry, it was an email, and it was received this afternoon stating that it was inspected today. I know for a fact it wasn't down last night as I had gone out to make sure it was secure (which clearly it wasn't).

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364707#Comment_121364707

Slightly different response than above but still very unfortunate. It’s really unfortunate that a planner is out inspecting site notices during an adverse weather warning.

What Council Area is it?

stibob · 13-11-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364718#Comment_121364718

Dublin City. I called and sent an email to the planner..just explaining my case in the afternoon, but didn't get an answer / response as it was quite late in the day.

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 8:44pm

Dublin City Council issued a stark warning that all their offices would be closed until 10am and that all inessential staff were to work remotely until 10am.

I am very surprised a planner was out checking notices and a very unfortunate set of circumstances to get the invalidation. Very harsh but technically correct decision from the planner.

Once the decision is made though, I don’t think it can be changed.

Penn · 13-11-2023 8:50pm

Yeah the fact it was an email changes things slightly, but unfortunately not enough. I'm assuming the application was submitted online, and therefore the invalidation notice from the planner was pretty instant. In which case, unfortunately I don't think there's any way they can reverse the decision. Once it's invalidated, it's invalidated.

Chances are even if you argue about the extreme weather conditions, they'll just come back and say the notice wasn't fixed securely enough to account for the weather conditions.

stibob · 13-11-2023 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364755#Comment_121364755

Yeah it was a web application. Seems like we will just have to resubmit, which is highly annoying. Hopefully I get to speak to the planner tomorrow, but not holding out much hope. At least it's just the newspaper fee that it costs us...which is another bugbear of mine, but that's for another day.

Penn · 13-11-2023 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364771#Comment_121364771

Just remember not to get too angry or argumentative with the planner.

As my boss told me once, even when you can prove they're wrong, they're still the ones deciding your application (and particularly the parts that are subjective). So proving them wrong means f*ck all.

listermint · 13-11-2023 9:09pm

What's with all these brand new accounts with bizarre stories that change on a whim.

Like I mean... they're all over the site now for weeks regardless of the forum or subject matter.

stibob · 13-11-2023 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364812#Comment_121364812

I concur. My email was nicely worded and plan to approach it the same tomorrow if I do get to speak with them, although judging by the responses, it looks like what's done is done.

stibob · 13-11-2023 9:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364829#Comment_121364829

I have several other threads on my usual account discussing some of the plans in detail, and I don't want it identified / linked back in case the planner happens to be here! Trying to remain as anonymous as possible. Also I didn't change something on a whim..just used the word letter instead of email attachment.

listermint · 13-11-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364847#Comment_121364847

Fairly specific wording mix up tbh

And I wouldn't see any planners heading out in that storm this morning. In fact they were probably told not to like most civil workers including public transport.

stibob · 13-11-2023 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364854#Comment_121364854

Well I didn't know it made a difference really. I consider an attachment in an email to be a letter of sorts. They also called it an "invalid letter for online planning application".

And the planner did visit today, according to the text of the finding: "On the date of site inspection on the 13th November 2023...".

stibob · 13-11-2023 9:26pm

Part 4, Article 20 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001(as amended) states -“In addition to the requirements of article 17(1)(b), a site notice shall be maintained in position on the land or structure concerned for the appropriate period from the date of receipt of the planning application by the Planning Authority and shall be renewed or replaced if it is removed or becomes defaced or illegible within that period.”

This was in the letter (email) also. The legislation allows for it to be replaced if it is removed. There is no timeframe stated, but surely you aren't expected to watch it every minute, but instead replace it in a reasonable timeframe. They just happened to inspect during that timeframe.

muffler · 13-11-2023 9:34pm

If its any help there is provision in the planning regs for notifying the planners when a site notice has been removed maliciously. Once the written notification has been sent and a new site notice erected the application can be further processed. I dont know if this applies to online applications/notifications or whether weather related problems are covered. I only ever availed of this once in the past but I would suggest you ask the planner about this facility.

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364902#Comment_121364902

It is your responsibility to ensure it remains in place.

The planner checked it, will have a time stamped photo of it so in reality there’s nothing you can do unfortunately.

App fee will be refunded so new newspaper advert and luckily enough it was a web app so no printing costs.

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364935#Comment_121364935

I’ve had to use this once. But it was in advance. Not after the fact. Unruly tenants from the house were removing the notice every evening.

muffler · 13-11-2023 9:53pm

Article 26 (7)

(7) Sub-articles (3) and (4) shall not apply where the planning authority is satisfied that the applicant complied with the provisions of articles 17, 18 and 19 but that any site notice erected by the applicant has been maliciously defaced or destroyed by any person other than the applicant.

See if the planner will accept that someone must have removed it.

muffler · 13-11-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365011#Comment_121365011

How do you mean in advance if it was already in place and being removed daily?

Gumbo · 13-11-2023 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365063#Comment_121365063

SN 1 went up and removed within 2 days.

SN 2 went up and removed that night.

SN 3 went up and removed at some stage during the next 2 days.

All well within the first week so no where near the time frame for the planner to arrive.

Touched base with the Planning Department, not the planner directly and explained the situation. Planner then called to chat about it and explained when they thought they would be carrying out the inspection so that week we made sure the notice was in place during daylight hours each morning.

Funnily enough the one notice lasted that whole week and that was the week the planner arrived out.

muffler · 13-11-2023 11:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121365200#Comment_121365200

Thanks Gumbo.

mickdw · 13-11-2023 11:28pm

Nothing new here.

I've had an application invalidated many weeks in for signature being faded on site notice.

New application submitted after and as is the way with trial holes (rural application), they tend to fill up when open too long. Anyway new application and when did the nice planner man decide to visit the site - morning after the only hurricane in living memory.

Luckily the applicant had realised the trial hole would be in a terrible state and had 'maintained' it earlier that morning.

They really can be dickheads sometimes.

stibob · 14-11-2023 8:16pm

To wrap this up, I was in touch with the planner today, no luck in getting it changed. Once they submit the notice of invalidity, it can't be undone. The best I got was that they would try and speed up the report writing phase and get it done before the 8 week time limit.

I'll be submitting it again this week and securing the notice with a lock and chain if I have to... Thanks for the advice here.

Markcheese · 14-11-2023 8:42pm

Best of luck with it .

Aravo · 14-11-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368951#Comment_121368951

Very poor form the planner to call out day of the red warning. If they had a number of visits they could done that. If sign in position, then happy days. If not they could have visited the day or days after to check on notice. They were quick enough to write the invalid correspondence but not quick enough to have visited in the last month.

yurtyaherne · 15-11-2023 10:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369097#Comment_121369097

They might have had no choice but inspect the day of a red warning. The must inspect the notice during the first five weeks, a lot of planners, due to their workload, normally inspect these in the last week and sometimes even the last allowable day.

You also say that "If sign in position, then happy days. If not they could have visited the day or days after to check on notice". Do you want a planner visiting the same site 2 or 3 times? It's the applicants responsibility to ensure the notice is in place for the duration of the submission period.

I don't work for a local authority but I do know how severe a workload is for a planner. They often set aside a specific day or half day a week to carryout all of their site inspections that need to be done that week. I've yet to come across a planner that conducts a site visit before week 4.

Aravo · 15-11-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370426#Comment_121370426

I referenced visiting the site on red weather warning day. And giving some leeway on this day. With regard to the events on Monday there are still some places with no power, this shows how severe the event was.

As for your suggestion "that due to their workload, normally inspect these in the last week and sometimes even the last allowable day". So if they were sick on the last allowable day then they would not have visited within the time frame. This would IMO show poor planning in itself.

If a spokesperson vacancy were to ever open for the planners union.