Promotion Yes / No

vixdname

Hi all, I'd seriously like to get some advice of you all as my head is wrecked going over this.

To cut a long story short my boss is leaving after she's gotten a new job.

The role myself and about 12+ others are in are kind of seen as progressive roles whereby they can advance into management if so desired.

Having said that, over the last few years, when managers positions have come about far from everyone in these positions go for them or apply.

Theres a good chance that if I went for my bosses job there's a good chance I'd get it.

The problem is is that financially speaking there would be a very small increase in my salary, but my responsibilities would sky rocket, we're literally talking approx. €80 max per week nett increase.

Also, my current role is unionised and I have worked within my company for over 20 years, which means that I basically cannot be let go unless they let go about 1000 people before me, the promotion would however require me to leave the union with no possibility of returning back to either my old position or the union if I took the new job, I'd be at the mercy of the company 100%, something of which I have full protection from from being a union member at present.

If I took the new position and things went pear shaped and I was let go, I'd never get such a high paying job as I have with my current role either.

My boss themselves told me the other day that if she was in my position and was asked to take her job whilst only getting a few euro more per week she'd not take it.

All of this you'd think should make it an easy choice for me but in the back of my mind I have this nagging feeling that I should take the new position if offered and enjoy being in a managers position but as soon as I start thinking that way, the pay and job security issues I've mentioned above take the gloss off of it all and I once again say NO, it's not worth the money, the added responsibility/ stress or the loss of job security.

Can I just add, for context, I'm 50 years old.

Any advice or opinions are gratefully accepted as my bloody head is wrecked!

Thanks all.

thefa

Have you much in the way of financial commitments left like mortgage, kids, etc?

Really comes down to your motivations at the end of the day. If the promotion could give your work life/satisfaction a boost or have further potential, then go for it. If you’re happy to have the security of the current role until retirement, that’s fine too.

By the way, if you have aptitude for the role and things went pear shaped for the company - I would think you’d be an expensive person to make redundant.

Also, are you sure of the full entitlements of the potential role or just comparing the base salary? Would expect a better bonus scheme at a minimum based on my experiences.

Jim2007

I suppose it really comes down to knowing yourself and what makes you happy...

• I'd start by discounting the money aspect as it really won't make much of a difference to your lifestyle. And on top of this as you get older the financial requirement will get lower in any case as you pay down your mortgage and kids grow and start to live their own lives.
• Are you happy in your current position? Do you feel fulfilled and can you see yourself doing this job for the next say 15 years?
• Do you actually enjoy management work - the hassle of dealing with people, managing budgets, hitting deadlines etc?

I can only speak for myself. Although I have held various senior positions over the years, I never enjoyed it and I was not particularly good at it. In most cases I only took on such positions as a temporary measure or as an external with specialist knowledge brought in to manage a particular situation. And I relinquished such positions as soon as possible and went back to technical work and consulting, which I enjoyed much more.

irelandrover

From reading your post it seems like you don't want it.

The only positive that I read in your post is that you would be called a manager. You don't seem excited about the actual role.

Is it worth a lot of extra stress, a loss of security for a name bump? For me it wouldn't be.

CramCycle

Can you talk to anyone about it before in terms of pay packet? Just an informal, I'm thinking about it but I'm not going to apply if there is no movement in the salary.

If they say no, don't worry, shake hands and say thanks but you will leave it for now.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360992#Comment_121360992

Hi there, I have approx 10 years left in my mortgage plus we started late ish with the kids and have a 10 and 8 year old.

So I definitely have strong financial commitments for a while yet.

There is a pretty small bonus in the new position but it's not much, so this isn't a big attraction.

This new position certainly wouldn't give my work/ life a boost, I'd have way more accountability and responsibility than I do now, I do about 70% of what the new job consists of in my current role, its that extra 30% is where all the extra responsibilities come in.

As it is now, I can clock out and no matter how good / bad the shift went, the buck stops with my boss, not me, and its this that I can't see as being worth an extra few euro a week.

Along with this I've also seen how non supportive the likes of the HR dept. is also towards others on my bosses level including herself, ie long term absenteeism not dealt with even after my boss has gone through all of the HR installed procedures and protocols, shifts with unequal resources available.

Yet, here I am thinking should I shouldn't I, what if it all works out better than expected BUT reality sets in and all the above comes in to play.

Thank you for your input, genuinely appreciate it.

alias no.9

What is the next step beyond this role? It just doesn't seem worth it as a role to move into and stay but it could be a leg up to something much better if that's what you want.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361280#Comment_121361280

Hi there, just to answer some of your points.

Financial I have my mortgage for another good few years and have 2 young kids so my finances need to be guaranteed decent for another good few years.

Am I happy in my current role: To be honest, I really enjoy my current role, I'm doing pretty a lot of my bosses work plus I'm more at the coal face with the troops, sorting out issues as they arise, all shift kpis and liasing with other depts. to keep the shift running as best as possible.

It's busy, but I like it.

The difference it sounds between yourself and myself is that you've had senior positions but we're able to relinquish those positions and return back to the technical side of your work where as I on the other hand, once I cross the line into management cannot return to my unionised position that I'm in now, or any other non management position again, it's a one way system with zero room for regret or mind changing, the only way out of it would be out the door, which is a risk, considering my current situation, I don't think I can make.

As I said in my original post, I'd find it hard if not impossible to find another position with similar salary.

One thing that would go against me is that my education is only to a QQI Level 6 along with a couple of level 5s in my field of work, its literally from my years of experience in my role that enabled me to get to where I am now.

If I had to leave the company I'd have to compete against younger people with degrees in their hands.

Yes, experience is important but degrees look better on cvs to lots of hire and hire people.

Thanks for your reply and anymore input is much appreciated

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361317#Comment_121361317

Thats exactly what I'm thinking too.

Staplor

Sounds to me like you don't want it, and are suffering from a sense of "duty" towards this company to take it on.

You are only there to make money for the company, once it's more efficient to let you go then you are gone. With the current state of the world economy and 1000 people in the line ahead of you for that redundancy, that's a place many people would like to be.

There's a certain comfort in being able to do your job well, with limited stress, especially with kids involved.

Screw that, for 80 quid a week there is no chance I'd be risking this.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361523#Comment_121361523

Sounds like you already know the right answer here....

A good work life balance and time with your kids is worth way more than 80 Euros and all the extra hassle.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361509#Comment_121361509

Hi there, I had that informal chat with my boss who's leaving.

There are big differences in the salary of managers on their level.

She said managers with more qualifications will get more money basically.

It was at that chat she told me that my salary is not much below theirs and almost on parity with a couple of recently promoted managers in different depts so looking for more money is not really an option, it's a take it or leave it type thing.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361619#Comment_121361619

I think you nailed it on the head with the sense of 'duty' description.

That's how I feel, almost that I'd be leaving down my bosses boss who already asked her if she thought I would go for the position.

I have at most 15 years left working, less if I get a chance of early retirement.

Do I really want to add stress and pressure to my life for those remaining years...I just don't think so.

Especially when my employment is pretty much guaranteed till retirement due to my senior placement in overall headcount plus it'll cost them dearly if I ever have to take redundancy.

I would lose all that for the sake of €80 a week and a new title.....

thefa

I think you may be underestimating your achievements. Hands on experience in the company, knowing the processes and having potentially already shown many of the skills (70%) needed is worth far more than a degree for a production manager. It’s not really a take it or leave it on their side - there would be a range the company has to work with but it would be up to you to negotiate rather than the union. Depends on how good a fit you can demonstrate you are, the competition and your ability to have awkward conversations! You can view it as a take it or leave it on your end and stay in the current role stating it’s not worth it, like the previous poster said.

That said, there’s a beauty to leaving it all at the door and spending more time at home. Have worked as a site accountant and there’s very good money in production jobs in certain industries. Unions looking after negotiations for inflationary increases rather than being at the whim of the company too. There’s nothing wrong with your current situation unless management is an itch you really need to scratch.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361799#Comment_121361799

It does sound like you don't actually want to go for it. Certainly 80 a week is not worth it in the long run if you will be working substantially more, if the job is a lot more work, then that should be compensated in some form, be it bonuses, increased pay or BIK, pensions etc.

As an aside though, you mention you have to leave the union, I know there is no obligation to recognise a trade union but if they recognise it for one employee, they must recognise it for all was my understanding. Talk to your union about it, it may just be a thing that managers never join or lapse when they do but it isn't a hard and fast rule.

You also have the same legal protections you had before, statutory redundancy, unfair dismissal protection etc. People often misunderstand unions, but if you were not doing your job and they could show it, provide an attempt at a performance management plan and you failed to improve, union membership does nothing here. Being in a new position doesn't take away any of your employment rights, so long as you continue to fulfil your role and do it aptly, they would be risking a lot to fire you after 20 years of service and a promotion they gave you, your solicitor would be delighted if they were not justified in the extreme.

I wouldn't ask the current position holder about salary, they get what they get, you might be able to get more, might be worth going a bit more senior. I know several senior people without any degrees or pieces of paper, it makes negotiation easier but they have a budget to stay within, you can either at the top of that budget or lower down.

JDD

I am a similar age to you, and in a similar position. I think we suffer a little from our "Gen X" expectations, in that if there's a promotion going, we should want it. Ambition was sort of baked in to us. I find the younger generations have a much better outlook - measuring success entirely differently to us.

I have a good job, which I enjoy. People at the management level above me are a mixture of older, same age, and people younger than me. When I look at the people younger than me earning more and having the "manager" name, I occasionally feel a pang that I need to get my finger out and work harder. Work longer hours, play the game more, and get a promotion. But like you, the level above me would only be a small jump in pay, with way more hours and responsibility. It's actually worse for the level above them. It's only when you get into the senior leadership roles that you can get out of the weeds somewhat, and the pay truly reflect the additional work. It would take ten years of hard slog to get there, and I have young kids. It's just not worth it.

I now try to measure success in a more wholistic way. I have a lovely family, a nice house and no particular financial worries. I have a job that give flexibility so that I can give time to my children, to my health, and to my hobbies. I enjoy the work that I do. I don't dread work on a Sunday night. By that scale, my career is exceptionally successful. I've had to have a few chats with myself - the devil on one shoulder would say it's laziness, or fear, or selfish not to go for the promotion. The devil says that other people will judge me for not making it further in my career. So I have had to spend some time "unindoctrinating" myself and to be honest, I think I'm there.

spaceHopper

It sounds like the extra responsibility is not rewarded by the salary bump and it could affect your work life balance to the extent that it would make the new position not worth it.

How is your pension done, is it defined contribution or defined benefit.  Basically would you get a better pension.

Is there a possibility of working from home? Improved holidays? Before you even think of apply, work out what you are worth, what is the minimum you would take? Next look around at who else could apply, what if one of them got the job, would you be happy reporting to them. What about an external. If you got and took it what would your next step be. How could you progress your career?  Is there room for negotiation in deal, could they improve the offer, you won’t know until you sit down with somebody.

If they approach you or you apply, there is not such thing as leaving the union and can’t go back. What if you took it on secondment for 1 year and could go back?

Dealing with long term absenteeism and lack of support form HR, you said it’s heavily  unionised, what else do you expect?

wpd

i took a promotion that my gut told me not to

was more money and everyone around me talked me into it

didnt work out and was sorry i ever took it, go with your gut feeling which seems to be not to take

Wanderer2010

I think you would be mad to take that job. Normally new managers are promoted by buttering them up with empty promises of career development when in reality they just want to get the maximum out of you for almost no return. 80 quid extra weekly for a tonne of duties that the higher ups will dump on you and no protection from the union? Where is the benefits in that?? At your age you should know the score. Management is a brutal game full of power mad petty men and women and low competence. I never understood why anyone would want that hassle in their lives..dont forget too as a manager you are expected to give up your free time and weekends for unpaid overtime.

I think the choice is obvious.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121362760#Comment_121362760

You make some excellent points.

When it comes to who I may be reporting to, yes, that's crossed my mind but I've had multiple managers of the years and have gotten on fine with all of them.

Also. I'm at an age now and know how the company works that if a new manager started acting the pest, I'd have zero qualms putting a line in the sand of what I'll accept from them and what I won't.

I have a good enough relationship with the higher echelons that they would listen to me if a problem arose.

Almost 25 years in total with not one issue with either work colleagues or managers would show quite quickly any friction wouldn't be stemming from me, that, plus I make their jobs a lot easier, mess me around and I'll just work by my WIs strictly and they'll have a much tougher job going forward.

I'm intrigued that a couple of people have said that I could keep the union up as a manager plus I could drop back into the union if things didn't work out.

I'm in SIPTU and since day one it's been a case of, make the move to management and you must leave the union.

There is also no going back, once you're gone you're gone.

SIPTU members in my company have a committee who liase between the unionised workers and management for pay talks etc, managers on the other hand are not included in these wage agreements that are achieved, only the Siptu members, basically managers cannot be part of a union.

There is no option for working from home either in my current or promoted position.

Thanks for your input, very much appreciated

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364139#Comment_121364139

Unless the pay rise is going to make a big difference to your quality of life I wouldn't take it.

Donald Trump

Go for the promotion. If they offer it to you, explain what it will take from them to accept it. If they want to play ball, then accept. If not, politely decline and go back to your current bulletproof position.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058322321/promotion-yes-no

Don't. You'll be expected to be at senior management beck and call for an extra 80 quid a week!

Might look good on the cv after a couple of years and you'll get a big increase if you leave.

Honestly, if you're happy, stay as you are.

For me, I may decide to go one rung up the ladder, but not for 80 euro a week. Working enough as it is.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361591#Comment_121361591

Forget degrees. Only counts with hr.

Ways around that. If you're liked in an interview and have experience, I'd hire you without a degree.

Based on what you've said in this thread, I cannot think of a single reason to take the promotion.

You say it's €80 a week extra, which doesn't seem to impress you. How much extra a week would impress you?

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121397216#Comment_121397216

At least 200

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121398341#Comment_121398341

100% right, but even with that, there's too many "negatives" to consider i.e. - Work life affected, the older I get the more I realise the time I spend with my kids and family is worth far more than any monetary increase or prestigious job title I can get.

Job security - (I have high seniority when it comes to last in first out within the company should job cuts ever be required - 1000+ ahead of me would have to go before myself) and being at senior managements beck and call doesn't float my boat either.

I've made up my mind that this promotion isn't for me, I actually spoke to another manager in the same role as the promotion would lead to, I know them outside of work also, and their exactly words were...."Be careful what you wish for"...I got the genuine impression from them that, should they have their time back, they too would not have went for that promotion either, but...like I said beforehand, once they swapped over from my level to management, they're out of the union and there is no option to revert back, once you're gone, you're gone

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121403847#Comment_121403847

I think you made the right decision, upon careful reflection of the positives versus negatives. Bear in mind also that your perception of how senior management like and respect you and how you are well liked by colleagues may be massively distorted. Of course in your own head you may think that people have a positive impression of you but the reality may be quite different and if you took on a management position you might find formely civil co workers now hate your guts and wont assist or help you in any way!

If you are in a company that large for that long you are going to annoy people with your habits, attitudes or a multidude of reasons that makes no sense. Thats the nature of large companies and management. You may not accept that but best not to test that theory by taking that promotion.

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121404084#Comment_121404084

Its a good point you're making in fairness but I don't believe I said I was well liked by colleagues, what I said was that after working there for well over 20 years and considering in all that time I never once had as much as an anger word never mind any conflict with either management or co workers, that if a new manager came on board and they're management style lead to conflict on the shift, it would be pretty easy to discern that the issue only arose when the new manager came on board.

Your point though is very true on how people can change when you enter a supervisory position.

My current position is of a supervisory nature and yes, when I moved in to that position, there were 1 or 2 that tried to make life a little more difficult or tried to put you down if possible but I dealt with those situations, as rare as they were, at the time and stamped it out immediately.

Having said that though, I wouldn't NOT take a promotion solely because of a risk that people may not like me or their perception of me was negative, I think no matter how decent you are, or how proficient you are at your job, if you get a position, especially a supervisory one, you will always have a few co workers that will be jealous or just not like seeing you progress positively and will do their best to take you down or show you up, the secret is to know who they are and be prepared to challenge them face to face and inevitably watch they get very uncomfortable when you put it to them.

That's the way I've always dealt with it, nip it in the bud very quickly and move on.

farmerval

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121361966#Comment_121361966

The single biggest b***h of moving into management tends to be managing your former colleagues. That's never easy and can be bloody awkward, especially if you're not cut out for it. Normally your moving from a role your good at to one that requires very different skills and often a thicker skin than you require in your current role.

I was there for a while and would be extremely hesitant to go back there.

Wanderer2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426669#Comment_121426669

Thats when the true feelings of your workmates surfaces. Its all well and good thinking you are well liked, respected and in the good books of management but thats just perception. You have no idea what people say about you when your back is turned. Workmates are not friends...rule number one.

Even if the OP had taken the promotion, formerly civil workmates could resent him and turn on him. Ive seen it happen over and over again and if they are in the union its next to impossible to sort them out and would be a huge headache for the new manager..beware what you wish for!

vixdname

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427519#Comment_121427519

100% correct