The €333 commercial tax rate?

meep

Basic question:

Thinking about buying an old 4x4 for hauling dogs and hobby stuff, towing the odd trailer etc.

I don't have a business and am not a farmer or self employed in any way.

Many of these vehicles, be they 2 seaters or crew cabs, are advertised with €333 road tax

What's the story with this? In my situation, can that tax be retained, or would I have to change it back to non-commercial and pay the higher rate?

I'm not seeking to circumvent anything here, just trying to grasp the rules.

mk7r

You need to change back to the normal tax rate

User1998

€333 is for commercial use only. You won’t be able to tax it at that rate without a VAT number etc.

ELM327

Depends on the local MTO. In some councils, a stamped declaration form and your personal PPSN as vat number will suffice, in others you need a copy of commercial insurance and a letter on business headed and stamped paper.

Viscount Aggro

I saw a camper van, with annual cvrt rate of EUR 100. Is this the normal rate?

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338309#Comment_121338309

That's not correct as a vat number is not a requirement to be a legit business.

Vat number is one option.

You can also use proof of trading business,

Farm herd or.flock number or alternatively letter from employer stating that you require the use of the vehicle for your work.

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meep

And regular insurance?

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338341#Comment_121338341

The ‘etc’ was covering all of those other things. OP wants it for personal use so I didn’t bother listing all the other stuff

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338341#Comment_121338341

Herd or flock number does not entitle you to commercial tax anymore.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338357#Comment_121338357

The rules have tightened considerably in the last 7 years, if you were to change vehicle you wouldn't qualify for commercial tax any longer. As long as you keep the same transit you are in the system and will get the renewals.

hoodie6029

Annual equivalent of the NCT too for commercials - the CVRT. About €100 a pop. Commercial grade tyres required to pass it, not standard ones IIRC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338333#Comment_121338333

Yep, they’ve a flat rate of €102 a year as they are leisure vehicles.

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mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338771#Comment_121338771

Farmers all getting it without issue in mayo anyway.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338756#Comment_121338756

I missed the etc. Apologies!

Alkers

If you change a transit / transporter or the likes to private tax, how is the tax rate calculated?

mk7r

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339838#Comment_121339838

By engine CC

Del2005

Even if you get commercial tax you aren't supposed to drive it for any private use, not that it's ever enforced. So as the OP isn't seeking to circumvent anything here they will have to tax it privately on the old cc system, which will be steep for most 4x4s.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338333#Comment_121338333

Yes, Campers have a lower tax rating.

orm0nd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339385#Comment_121339385

won't work in clare

you need a letter from revenue stating your business is farming, also form stamped by garda, also have to show that your insurance has commercial (goods) cover and something else which I can't recall atm

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339385#Comment_121339385

Probably because they can prove they run a commercial business, the fact they have herd or flock numbers is not the reason they are allowed commercial tax.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340357#Comment_121340357

Well every farmer is making tax returns and getting grants so should be easy enough get a letter if required.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121339872#Comment_121339872

Why isn't it emissions based?

I can't find anything official explaining this.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121338317#Comment_121338317

Fraud is easier some places than others I guess.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340903#Comment_121340903

State sponsored tax avoidance is a more civilised way to describe it

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340896#Comment_121340896

It's not an M class, it's an N class. Emissions tax is only for M class passenger vehicles. A vehicle with N1 (or anything else) that is not in the emissions tax class will be taxed at CC.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121340903#Comment_121340903

Its hardly fraud if I'm paying the tax and the government agency accepts the payment.

hoodie6029

The €333 rate was attractive for a long time due to the high motor tax rate and then the premium cost for CO2 rate cars.

The oldest CO2 cars will be 16 years old in January. Plenty of Citroen Picassos and others in the same class that are cheap to buy, run and tax. Take the seats out and you have a small van essentially with none of the commercial headaches.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342004#Comment_121342004

It sure is.

Fraud has been defined as "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain".

Hardly crime of the century however and let's not get into the area of ethics.

Alkers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121341475#Comment_121341475

I understand that but it's not written down anywhere that I can find. Only that it's discounted to the 333e rate.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342378#Comment_121342378

It is documented in the various motor tax acts. It's always been an if X then Y, If A then B, else CC rate applies. If you go down the list you'll see that an N1 vehicle in private use doesnt qualify for the goods rate or the emissions rate. Therefore the catchall of CC applies.

You can see it here from gov.ie "EU Category N vehicles being taxed privately irrespective of the date of

registration

Engine

Capacity

(c.c.)"

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/90909/c1c067a4-052b-406a-86dd-33a6830f90ad.pdf#page=null

elperello

The best course of action is to check your local authority website.

It will give a list of the documentation required to tax at the commercial rate.

If you can produce that you will get it taxed and annual renewal will be online.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121342004#Comment_121342004

It is fraud if you create a document confirming that it is only used as a goods vehicle when in fact you intend it to use it for other purposes. Section 26 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 “use of a false instrument”; carries a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343054#Comment_121343054

Sounds like a massive stretch of your imagination there Marcus to be honest.

I don't think any law is being broken in the scenario where a person meets the requirements set by the local authority and pays the fee quoted.

How could that possibly be a criminal offence in anyones mind?

Even if it was (which it isn't) how would it be detected once a driver has insurance, certificate of road worthiness and up to date tax disc displayed?

What rules of the road or traffic act would have been breached?

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343335#Comment_121343335

Not sure if you understand fully. As well as meeting the criteria, you also need to sign a declaration that states you won’t use the vehicle for personal use. I’ve attached it below.

https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/pdf/RF111A_en.pdf

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343335#Comment_121343335

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343681#Comment_121343681

You are both right up to a point.

When someone produces the correct documentation including the RF 111 no offence is committed.

They have produced what is required to avail of the commercial rate.

The offence, if any, is only committed should they breach the terms of the RF 111.

It could be a plumber whose wife's car breaks down and he picks up his kid from school or a jet skier who uses his van to tow his machine to the slipway.

In either case a conviction for fraud is very unlikely.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343681#Comment_121343681

I'm familiar with that form, where does it state that you could face up to 10 years in jail?

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343851#Comment_121343851

I never said anything about 10 years in jail. I just wasn’t sure if you were aware of the form or not.

Anyway, I was driving a commercial around for months with that form in my glovebox cause I was too lazy to get it stamped, mostly driving for personal use, so if there is any jail time it’s definitely not enforced😂

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343967#Comment_121343967

Marcus was the one who mentioned 10 years in jail and it was his post I quoted and asked 3 questions of.

You jumped in then and I responded to you.

I'm well aware of the form and all the other criteria that is needed to be fulfilled, I'm just curious how Marcus arrived at the conclusion a 10 year jail sentence was a possibility.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121344025#Comment_121344025

Because the making of the false declaration is the creation of a false instrument with the intention of convincing someone it is genuine. See my statutory reference above; in the alternative, it could be prosecuted for causing a loss by deception (being the loss of the additional motor tax revenue), that only carries a 5 year sentence.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121353792#Comment_121353792

As I thought Marcus it's just you stretching your imagination, even though you have now slackened that stretch from 10 to 5 years it's still fiction.

MakersMark

Upside is relatively cheap motor tax for a large engined vehicle.

Downsides are requirement for commercial insurance (usually more expensive than private) and an annual CVRT inspection, which is twice the price if the NCT.

I used my PPS number. Not all businesses are VAT registered.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121354176#Comment_121354176

Did you even read the law I quoted? It’s not a matter of imagination, simply of integrity. If the form is completed correctly and the relevant terms are true the. No issue arises. Otherwise, it would be interesting to hear how you think a false declaration is not within the provisions which I have cited?

otherwise, your comments are as fatuous as they seem on a simple reading.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121355228#Comment_121355228

This is the reality of the situation.

Unless you live on planet Marcus, where you will get 10 years in the slammer at the expense of the taxpayers for breaking a law that does not exist.

creedp

Dont forget the significantly reduced VRT and no nox levy.

MakersMark

I didn't realise there was no Nox levy!

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121356506#Comment_121356506

The troll/hurler on the ditch continues to comment but not to engage with the law which was cited. Just to add to the potential prosecutorial options, it is an offence carrying up to wilfully furnish any false information (such as an incorrcwct declaration in the goods vehicle form) in connection with any tax.

That is section 1078 Taxation Consolidation Act 1997. The difference is the prosecutorial authority - Revenue rather than the DPP.

It’s the casual acceptance/incitement of others to evade their legal obligations which would, in a properly moderated forum, require Row’s Grower to redact his posts.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357831#Comment_121357831

Marcus, instead of trying to be a backseat mod and flinging out personal insults why don't you answer the three questions that were asked of you in post 33?

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121343335#Comment_121343335

This one?

As regard question 1; the point is only relevant where the declaration on the form is false. It’s hard to infer that I was suggesting that any person could be prosecuted where they filled the form correctly. It’s also clear that the offence is not carrying on personal business in one which is taxed as a goods vehicle but making a declaration that it will only be used for permitted purposes while knowing that the declaration is false.

As regards your second point, I live that you think breaking a law is only relevant where it can easily be detected. Nevertheless, carrying baby seats, driving it to a pub or restaurant, lots of other ways!

As regards your third point, breaching the rules of the road does not amount to an offence. Sorry that I have to point this out to you. Motor Tax is also not governed by the Toad Traffic Acts either. It is governed by Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952. Penalties, breaches etc are, however, delineated in Taxes Consolidation Act 1997.

You seem to see this as some form of victimless crime as opposed to what it truly is; the sort of shameful me-feinery which raises costs for all of us.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121357923#Comment_121357923

Your first sentence in your answer to question 1 is the most pertinent point in the discussion.

Your attempt to dodge the second question is just that, a sad effort at ad homien tactics. By the way for your information it is not against the law to drive a commercial vehicle with a baby seat fitted nor is against the law to drive one to a pub or a restaurant.

Your answer to the third question is exactly the point I was making, there is no offence committed, no law broken and no possibility of a 10 year jail sentence for anyone.

You can argue your opinion is right all you want Marcus but it will still be just your opinion, which is wrong.

This doesn't mean you still can't have that opinion, you can. But you can't have your own personally invented facts, they don't exist.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121358040#Comment_121358040

If a person falsely makes a declaration to obtain a reduced rate of Motor Tax they have a committed at least one offence and I have provided citations of how it can be pursued. You seem to lack the literacy skills to discern that at no stage did I state or imply that driving a car with a falsely obtained tax disc was an offence - you are stating that I did. Detection of a potential false declaration offence could be triggered by detection of the vehicle actually being used in circumstances contrary to the declared intention. A subsequent investigation, particularly of someone who does not carry on a business which requires the carriage of goods, could very well deliver sufficient evidence to prosecute for the false declaration.

Fore sample, British cabinet minister Chris Huhne convinced his eminent Bank of England England economist wife to sign a speeding notice declaring that she was driving their car at a point when the associated penalty points would have delivered a ban to him. I am given to believe that this is not an uncommon occurrence; it is like the declaration here which many would make not being aware of the potential penalty.

On the breakdown of their marriage, she confided this information in a “friend” who subsequently disclosed it to the police. They were both ultimately convicted and given jail sentences for perverting the course of justice. This might be a salutary lesson for all the tax evaders out there.

You might also address my third answer again; offences are committed. I was simply pointing out to you that they are fraud or tax offences, not Road Traffic ones. Have you read any of the Acts which I cited?

bronkobilly

i use my van all the time its taxed commmercial tax at 333 euros as i carry own goods in it meaning from a bag of nails to a sliced pan once its own goods once everything is on the window that s fine for me if its a van big or small its commercial tax 😀