Shogun - FX on Hulu

squonk

yeah. There’s been much suggestion of a battle but nothing has materialised. It’sa great show and I’m up to last weeks episode but I found myself wondering was I in some kind of rut because we had to be running out of episodes and the conclusion seemed as distant as ever.

Brian?

I wouldn’t hold my breath for a giant battle scene.

I think the intrigue is brilliant. I read the book, but am still on the edge of my seat for what happens next.

squonk

the latest episode was great! It completely turned the series around for me. I thought it was starting to lag and maybe Judy draw out events but I can’t wait for the next episode now.

druss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995202#Comment_121995202

I agree. Episode seven also took a major diversion, but nothing compared to episode eight.

I'm fine with some items being simplified - I already mentioned the Willow World aspects in episode six as being difficult to achieve on camera as it's all about what the characters are thinking.

Same to an extent with the tea ceremony bit from episode eight. It started well, but then degenerated into far too much dialogue exposition. I think this could have been done better and it ended with Mariko acting in a very un-Mariko like way.

The reunion with the Erasmus surviving crew was very very poor. And here I would see the book version as being perfectly filmable. It gives a much better picture of respective prejudices. What Blackthorn has learned, but also what he is forgetting.

And the bit that Dave_The_Sheep is talking about also is a major negative from my perspective.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998113#Comment_121998113

Think they would benefit from another few episodes. :)

All the above aside, I am still glad that this was made.

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000141#Comment_122000141

Spoiler Warning

Yeah, I'd have preferred had they had things more like the book for that scene, but I can't deny that it is probably the only way for it to be emotionally impactful given we don't have Sudara, or any kind of link to any other of the generals on the Toranaga side. I also really liked this portrayal of Hiromatsu, real shame to see him gone. Plus we can't have Yabu piss him off later down the line with his piles comment. Still, I'll give them a pass as it works reasonably well. And he does go out like a f*cking boss.

The tea ceremony I agree on as I do with the crew scene. Less talking needed in one, more in the other. Whilst it doesn't ruin too much, they have gone a quite gimped version of Blackthorne in this series.

All the above aside, I am still glad that this was made.

Same. It's very much taken it's own course in the last two episodes, which is a pity, but given my other hotly anticipated adaptations of books lately were the Wheel of Time and the Witcher, I'm very pleasantly surprised overall that this one stuck to the story at least as much as it did.

Agent Coulson

What an episode and Anna Sawai should be winning awards when awards season comes back around.

fritzelly

Well that was just…amazing

Widdensushi

9 was good but not filling the void of the previous episodes,, disappointed overall.

Brian?

That was phenomenal episode - best episode of any new tv program I’ve seen in years.

squonk

Jebus Christ!! High stakes poker or what!!! Fantastic episode

Quiet Achiever

That was good alright!

Cosmo improving as the show has gone on.

Mariko is the only woman for me from now on.

Pentecost

She is amazing. My god. I'm moving to feudal Japan!

fran38

Anna Sawai is also in Monarch: Legacy of Monsters.

Agent Coulson

What a fantastic series that was

Midnight_EG

Can someone explain the relevance of showing us John on his deathbed/future please? I've never read the books

fran38

Blackthorne as an old man seems to be holding the cross that Marika gave him. Yet he throws it into the lake while in the boat???

squonk

yeah. I assumed it was a similar set of beads or else that he dropped a similar set over the side so he could keep some piece of Mariko with him.
I thought the episode felt like a real anti climax after last week. After everything that has happened it felt a let down having Toranaga just tell what the plan is. It felt like they ran out of time.

druss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055573#Comment_122055573

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055603#Comment_122055603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122055946#Comment_122055946

I can only assume that the deathbed scenes were meant as some form of a false vision, or a dream that Blackthorne has. And that this helps him to recognise that, in some ways, he can never leave Japan and Mariko behind. When he drops the cross into the lake, this alternative future disappears and his future becomes what Toranaga and Mariko have decided it will be.

There were some excellent bits in the episode, but as a finale it was a disappointment from this book readers perspective. Once again, major, major diversions from the plot, from the motivation and from the behaviour of various characters.

Some of these changes are not even consistent within what the show is showing us elsewhere, especially with Ochiba and the Christian regents.

Book-Yabu is a much more malevolent and complicit character that TV-Yabu, who behaves cartoonishly at times.

Edit: to be clear, there isn't any deathbed scene in the novel.

Patser

It's been suggested the deathbed scenes are just Blackthorn dreaming, especially as the episode is titled Dream within a Dream.

Edit: also from the book point of view, the whole climatic battle is also glossed over there, it's all tidied up in a few paragraphs, although SPOILER Brother being promised Ochiba to get him on side only to be rejected by her, as Toranaga knew she would, is completely missed out on. In fact Ochiba is the one character in this series that is softened right down, into quilted friend of Mariko rather than malevolent driver of events

Agent Coulson

I think the death bed scenes were to show

Spoiler Warning

He never left Japan.

Midnight_EG

I've since read the books version of the 'future', and the show leaves out that Yabushige gives John his swords. The kids ask John in the flashforward if they were really 'given to him by a savage'. So I suppose it's both a dream and a reality.

Sleepy

Anyone know if they're planning to do more of the Asian Saga or is Shogun our lot?

fran38

From what I'm reading online, the daughter of James Clavell states that even though a season 2 would obviously be going outside the margins of the book, its not inconceivable that the Shogun universe could be revisited if fans of the show wants more.

Agent Coulson

Much the same way Hulu did with The Handmaid's Tale they could expand the series outside the original novel to create more seasons.

Quiet Achiever

The Handmaid's Tale and Game of Thrones are two compelling reasons not to follow up successful adaptations when there is no source material to do so

Dave_The_Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063410#Comment_122063410

Can't a good thing just be left well alone?

(No, of course not, money is all that matters)

druss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063410#Comment_122063410

I read some quotes from producers which indicated a vague interest in other works by Clavell (although specifically mentioning Tai-pan, set in Hong Kong, rather than Gai-jin, set in Japan, and which has more indirect connection to Blackthorn and Shogun).

The overall mood seemed to be that this was a stand alone and they would move on from it. Of course, not to say that FX couldn't assemble a team to work on what happened next for Blackthorn/Adams..where there is a sketch in the book and historical records could fill in the gap.

I wouldn't mind to see a take on Gai-Jin. I've read it twice, but I probably wouldn't be as obsessive about characterisation and plot changes as I've been with a Shogun adaptation!

Patser

Gai-Jin alone would make absolutely no sense - it's the closest Clavell had to a direct suquel, following on from Tai-Pan. Beyond the setting being in Japan, there is no tie in to Shogun (except an inconsequential reference made by 1 character of he unusual European descent).

Also Tai-Pan is a far better story - so I'd love to see Tai-Pan being adapted, and then Noble House which has Tai-Pan as a base too

Spon Farmer

I’ve had to stop a few minutes into episode 8 to ask this. And I can’t Google in case of spoilers.

Mariko is talking to Lady Rin about Toranaga not yet visiting his new granddaughter. A pregnant daughter in law in aero who is sister to Ochiba was mentioned in epiosde 1 or 2.

But who is the husband of Lady Rin ? As best I can remember no mention of Nagakado being married has been made and I had assumed there was another son in Edo. in the previous episode his half-uncle implied he was as a virgin in bed and on the battlefield. And no reference is made to Rin being a widow now.

mans Toranago’s pregnant consort in still in Edo - is she not in danger or does society rules protect her ?

And neither Mariko or Buntaro have made mention of their son who was left in Osaka ?

Midnight_EG

Your last bit will be answered in EP.9 anyway