Fires in car parks

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245362#Comment_121245362

The initial stages of many battery fires won't trigger an RCD nor a current breaker as it's a cell fault and not a bus-bar failure, so what do you mean?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245336#Comment_121245336

Statistically speaking it seems more prudent to ban diesel vehicles from the car park

While they're at it, they should probably ban all phone chargers and instead force everyone to use a safe electric certified USB wall outlet

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245614#Comment_121245614

LPG's were banned in Europe in all underground structures until 2014.

https://www.liquidgaseurope.eu/images/pdf/aegpl_position_lpg_vehicle_access_to_underground_car_parks.pdf

They finally saw the light when they looked at the stats for LPG related fires.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245614#Comment_121245614

The problem is not about EVs going on fire, it's the few that do are as good as impossible to put out.

A typical car fire takes 1000-2000l to put out. An EV can take up to 30000l according to Essex fire brigade.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245653#Comment_121245653

Agreed, they are more challenging to deal with, but fire-services will have to adapt. Whether that's putting a fire-sheet over the vehicle and then pulling it out by the chassis or swamping it in CO2, I don't know, but they will dream something up.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245170#Comment_121245170

evidence please

AmpMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245495#Comment_121245495

What's a rcd?

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245336#Comment_121245336

All new apartments are getting EV charging in the basements currently. I’ve just come from a double basement in the city and every, yes, every single spot has an EV charger.

I don’t think we will see it prohibited personally speaking.

Paulzx

Car fires in underground or multistory carparks have always been difficult to deal with from a Fire Brigade point of view. Access can be difficult and it can take take time to actually figure out where the seat of fire is due to smoke etc. Any vehicle fire emits a large amount of heat energy. Pair that up with an enclosed space in an underground carpark and plenty of adjacent fuel load (other cars parked close) and you have the potential for a nasty fire if the initial intervention is not rapid.

This applies equally to traditional vehicles and EV's. The issue with EV's is if the battery pack becomes effected. Just because an EV catches fire doesn't mean that the battery pack will enter thermal runaway. Before the battery pack becomes involved its just another vehicle fire!

The issue with EV's arises when the battery pack becomes compromised to the extent that it is overheating. When it ignites it requires huge volumes of water to cool it and the energy release is big. The other complication is the danger of what appears to be a non compromised battery entering thermal runaway many hours later even though it appears the fire is out.

The reality is that an enclosed carpark with cars parked close together at full capacity is in big trouble if 5 or 6 cars become fully involved in a fire. Whether they are EVs or not will probably not change the fact that the carpark could be lost. The energy releases in such a confined space are just so big. With ICE vehicles you have the complication of flammable liquid fuel flowing on the ground once the fuel tanks melt. With EVs its the battery packs.

Both have their complications and specific hazrds

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245653#Comment_121245653

Yeah but there's also a question of what exactly the expected outcome is

In my view, if a car goes up in flames in an underground car park and ends up torching the apartment building above it, but nobody is hurt because they were evacuated in time, then I would call this a win

Apparently the fire department seems to think similarly given they don't seem to be going into underground or multi story car parks to tackle fires. Their objective seems to be to contain the blaze to a single building and mitigate collateral damage

And I'm fine with that, I don't think it's appropriate for firefighters to risk their lives to preserve a bunch of inanimate objects

So it doesn't really matter whether it's an EV or ICE car on fire. Once the fire is contained then they'll just wait for it to burn itself out, whether that takes 12 hours or a week

In general the most successful firefighting technique has been to stop the fires from happening in the first place. Think of all the additional building standards that have gone in regarding fire safety over the past decades

Part of the reason we're seeing more sprinkler systems is because furniture has become drastically more flammable. Turns out IKEA crap makes excellent kindling, I saw some report that the average time for everything in a room to combust was something like 45 mins in 1990 and is now closer to 10 mins.

Couple that with our tendency to charge our phones beside our bed using extremely poorly made chargers and it's easy to see why phone chargers are one of the leading causes of fire deaths

Hence my somewhat cheeky comment that the best strategy would be to ban diesel cars and phone chargers

In other words, you're trying to put out a candle when the roof is on fire 😉

zg3409

Multi storey and underground are typically quite open to outside air I assume due to vehicle fumes during queing and idling say in full multi storey shopping centre car parks near Xmas.

I'm terms of sprinklers I doubt they would be effective in any vehicle fire, by the time they would operate it would be too late. In terms of gas suppression like computer server rooms it would probably be too open to work. However I did see a video of a petrol station where is did work, even though it is very open. Probably too expensive and the risk of accidental trigger is high. I worked with these systems and we always disabled automatic triggering when working in the area. They kill fires and any people in the area.

In terms of saving lives detecting and evacuating people is critical and maybe detection should be required if apartments overhead although I suspect already it's factored into the design rules as in they decide if it is needed or low risk.

In terms of EV versus diesel or petrol some statistics say EVs are 15 times less likely to be involved in a fire, but as mentioned we need a lot of older EVs to get real long term statistics. Petrol fires can be very fast and violent even explosive, Diesel is harder to ignite but energy density wise petrol and diesel contain more energy than EV. They also release it quicker. EVs rarely go on fire but when the battery fails it tends to be slow and smokey rather than fast and hot. This is much safer for people as it gives you time to exit vehicle. In terms of harder to put out, it's not that important once no people are at risk. They can just wait until all energy is gone. It's a pain for fire fighters but they routinely leave one or two people at house fires to dampen smoke and wait for any flare ups.

In terms of EVs charging there are multiple safety systems, every cell in the battery has a temperature sensor, even the charging plugs have temperature sensors and mechanical locks hold the connectors locked while charging. These systems turn off charging if anything is overheating, in general far safer than filling petrol or diesel cars.

Often the cars catching fire are actually driving about to park, this happened in Cork, parked cars are very low risk. It's unlikely a parked car will suddenly go on fire.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246309#Comment_121246309

It's unlikely a parked car will go on fire, but a charging EV has a heightened risk although the risk still remains very low. It will take only one or two incidents of an EV fire destroying an apartment block in Ireland to either change the regulations or more likely, make obtaining block insurance extremely expensive or impossible if charging is permitted.

The problem is that while they might occur a tiny amount of times the consequences are catastrophic.

EV companies will either have to change the chemistry to make them less flammable or have inherent fire suppression within the cells.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246499#Comment_121246499

Is it a higher risk? How many EVs that went on fire were charging at the time? If any, how many were using slower AC chargers which are more likely to be found in a multi story car park?

return guide

A fire suppression system will not cause any ill effects to a human being, I have been in rooms with the gas discharged, it's not pleasant but it didn't knock me out. The old CO2 systems were a different story but that gas can only be for extinguishers rather suppression now.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246517#Comment_121246517

Well if you wanted to discharge enough gas to extinguish a vehicle fire it would probably be a much higher amount than for any other environment. In that case you could reach the amount to be harmful to anyone in there

return guide

Agree 100%, the fire detection and alarm system will operate in the event of a fire. If the carpark is underground this will give ample opportunity the upper stories before the fire doors etc are compromised. Again, get out and get the FB out, no need for "heroes"

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246554#Comment_121246554

Going back to my example of the server room, we were specifically told by EHS not to go into the room to check on anyone we knew to be in there

The rule was simple, if you hear the fire alarm then GTFO and leave the heroics to the trained professionals

Amateur hero hour tends to end up as dead hero aftermath

quokula

As more and more cars are replaced by EV's this problem will become even more significant.

But the statistics show the opposite - as more ICE cars get replaced by EVs, the number of vehicle fires that Fire Services have to deal with will be drastically reduced, given that they're much less likely to go on fire. Depending on which studies you look at for which country, and which side they count hybrids as being on, they are anything up to 60 times less likely to go on fire. And the technology is improving all the time.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246513#Comment_121246513

The Australian Fire service note that in their experience that a third of EV fires occur while charging.

That said T0194, the latest fire guidance note for EVs and fire in covered carparks in the UK thinks that the jury is out on whether charging significantly changes the risk. The recommendation in that document is to prefer mode 3 or 4 charging in carparks as the chargers themselves have more safety features. They also recommend deluge systems and larger carparking spaces. It's all very expensive stuff. The document is worth a read though - it's freely available on UK gov.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246499#Comment_121246499

You could replace the word EV with ICE in your posts and the content would still stand.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246647#Comment_121246647

According to this Australian government funded research institute on EV battery fire safety (EV FireSafe). There have been 6 case of EV/PHEV battery fires that have occurred in Australia (out of 120k on the road). All cases were caused by damage to the battery pack (1xArson, 3xExternal Fire, 1xCollision, 1xRoad Debris).

Interesting that as of 4 weeks ago they weren't aware of the number of the EV fires during charging, presumably 3 of them have gone up in flames since this video was recorded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJBlMujlp8

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246647#Comment_121246647

That's actually very interesting, thanks

I must read the document sometime, but off the top of your head did they differentiate between fast DC charging and slow AC charging?

Also I wonder how many cases were due to charging, or if the cars happened to catch fire while charging

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245170#Comment_121245170

It would spell the end of multistorey car parks as all cars will be EVs in the next ~25 years

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248591#Comment_121248591

and underground parking in apt blocks

josip

I think it would spell a pause for a few years, not the end. EVs in multistory car parks will ultimately be decided by the insurance companies who will determine the real world risk and potential liability more accurately than any of us can. But assuming that the EVs continue to gain market share, then it might simply be a case of multi-storey car park charges paying a premium over surface car parks to cover the additional insurance costs.

the_amazing_raisin

It's worth remembering that more and more manufacturers are moving to LFP chemistry batteries which are totally fireproof.

You can literally hit those batteries with a flamethrower and they won't ignite

So it's quite possible the problem will largely solve itself in the next few years

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248628#Comment_121248628

Yes, it will become a sham before it gets fixed. We know that from past history.

Pessimistic view: Initially insurance companies will decline to accept any charging in underground car-parks and will veto any installations. They'll apply limits on existing installations. That will persist until big-name industry players come up with a solution (at high cost, needless to say) and obtain underwriter approval for some type of mode-3 and mode-4 charging. But by then many of the car-parks will be built without the required infrastructure and the costs will be so high that nobody can afford it.

Optimistic view: There won't be any EV charging fires so there won't be any limitations on charging. :)

Old diesel

There are already a number of ideas on table re better dealing with EV fires.

It's claimed that using special EV fire blankets will help contain the fire by lowering the temperature. And keeping the fire within the blanket.

There is also equipment solutions that allow you to to SIMULTANEOUSLY pierce the battery pack and put water in to the battery pack. Some of you may have seen the story of the special Toyota Hilux 6x6.

The Hilux was a centre part of the story - but the actual critical element - the Cobra cold cut lance - can travel in ANY fire vehicle.

The Cobra was actually developed pre EVs but is now one of the potential options on table for EV fires.

With EVs it can "cut" through into the battery pack to better cool and extinguish the fire.

Bear in mind the lance also simultaneously puts water into wherever its cutting into.

The thinking is that not only does the Cobra coldcut reduce the time to potentially put out a battery fire.

It also uses a lot less water.

The Renault Megane eTech and I understand Zoes too - have the idea of a fireman's access.

The idea as I understand it that when the pressure of the firefighters hoses hits the specific access point.

Then the access point is supposed to give way so that water can go into battery pack directly.

Re sprinklers

When the Wymo Jaguar iPace went on fire in the US earlier this year - the sprinklers in Waymos "warehouse" prevented the fire spreading to other vehicles.

The Jag was obviously wrecked beyond all repair. And the local fire service actually decided to put it in a container of SAND to address the reignition risk.

That re ignition risk is part of the reason why you hear of "EV fires can't be put out".

What sometimes happens is that the fire is "put out" but then "starts up again"

There's clearly a LOT of research to be done even on things as basic as building consensus among fire brigades around the world as to the best strategies to deal with EV fires.

The above is more about illustrating that work is happening to address how to deal with EV fires

Rather then endorsing any particular solution

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121248591#Comment_121248591

Based on the assumption that battery chemistry does not change, which is not an assumption you should make.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251189#Comment_121251189

All very cool solutions

I think you nailed it that it's not so much the intensity of the blaze but the difficulty to extinguish and prevent re ignition

As I recall, the majority of NCM chemistry batteries release oxygen when they break down, which is why they're difficult to extinguish.

Presumably even once you put the fire out you still have damaged cells leaking oxygen in a hot environment, leading to more fires

As I said, I think the move to LFP chemistry is going to solve a lot of the problems. Most of the performance disadvantages of LFP can be managed using other means.

NCM is probably going to end up in performance cars only