Should the sale of second-hand electrical items be banned?

Andy From Sligo

More than likely an unpopular post but it will be good to get other people's views on it.

Should there be a ban on used second-hand electrical items like cookers, washing machines, tumble driers , fridges etc in charity shops, buy and sell publications and online selling sites such as Facebook Market place and done-deal etc (even adverts.ie 😲 ) ?

Bear with me a the moment:

If you buy brand new you get a 12 month warranty on an item (possibly even more) or can return a faulty (possibly dangerous item) back to the shop where you bought it from. You can also get recalls from the manufacturers for faulty or dangerous items. And you can be sure that when you have bought brand new from a shop that the item you get will have come directly from the factory as is , no faulty (possibly dangerous) secondhand parts fitted to it , brand new never been used.

If you buy used second-hand goods they could look absolutely fine on the outside , you might even think you are getting such a bargain and the appliance hardly looks used ... how do you know for certain that it is not dangerous or turn out to be dangerous (ie catch fire or electrocute you or someone else in the household)? can you be sure that the appliance has not previously had a repair job done on it and was not carried out by an electrician or a qualified person? - how can you be sure that it has had its internal parts replaced with safe components (some parts that are not manufactured spare parts can be lethal!, not even passed for safety) - how can you be sure the insulation inside has not been compromised some how and the item is no longer properly earthed etc or someone has replaced the cable and used the wrong size or left the earth off or done the screws up in the 13amp 3 pin plug properly or used the right fuse?

Worryingly, frequently, landlords of rented houses tend to buy used/secondhand items like electric cookers and washing machines and the likes opting for these for new or existing tenants rather than buying brand new appliances. What if they fit to the house or apartment a dangerous item that is either going to catch alight or shock one of their tenants, who's will pay up for that, will the goods even be insured or covered by their insurance if the items are not brand new?

Now onto charity shops, its selective - I have been in some charity shops that will not accept any electrical items for this very issue (of not being sure/being able to check) that the electrical items are safe so they will not accept them/sell them , and then some charity shops that will (OK maybe not cookers and washing machines etc) but things like small appliances like mixers, hairdryers, table lamps etc (these can electrocute as well as catch fire as well) - then there are more outlets such as Car boot sales and market stalls that sell electrical items. They are hardly going to thoroughly give these a good check through for safety before putting them out.... and if you do end up with a faulty electrical appliance you are hardly going to be able to take it back to them and get a refund or any comeback like that , that you could in a shop.

we seem to be at a place now where you cannot wire up certain things in your home , or if you call in an electrician by law they must be registered and do a sign of sheet of competence - yet you can go to a car boot sale, charity shop, buy something online electrical and no nothing of its past and how safe it is against electrocution or fire very easily.

worth thinking about that maybe used/second-hand items should not be able to be sold? and that the only place you can buy an electrical item would be a shop or directly from a manufacturer?

I dont want to be a killjoy I have and still do, buy used electrical items myself and love looking around a good ol' car boot sale or see whats on the ol' facebook marketplace or done deal or adverts (to save money mainly) - have too a few apart when have got them and found some dodgy repairs sometimes done by previous owners and I open up 13a plug and screws loose/not done up tight or wrong fuse fitted (but thats just me- I bet not everybody does) I should imagine a lot of people just get it home , plug it in and thats it and doesnt give it another thought.

So, what do you reckon - ban the sale of used electrical items ... or not?

L1011

We already have insanely restrictive rules that prevent second hand shops selling electrical items. Any charity shop selling them will have done a PAT test (recursive acronym there but everyone uses the term).

If anything the rules need to be significantly reduced, not increased. eWaste is a HUGE problem.

Put rules in about landlords having higher requirements - e.g. PAT - if you want rather than making even more eWaste.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058318208/should-the-sale-of-second-hand-electrical-items-be-banned

Go to bed Harvey Norman. You’re drunk.

You’ve a big sale tomorrow to prepare for.

dxhound2005

I'd be all for that. Plus everyone should have to replace all their stuff with new ones every year. The vast majority never reaches the seconhand market, but could be going faulty without people realising.

mazdamiatamx5

Don't be giving this virtue signalling government any more stupid ideas

T-Maxx

TLDR

But to answer your question; No.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239643#Comment_121239643

Most annoying term to come out of the last few years.

No OP I actually think the opposite and we need to be using more second hand stuff and getting things repaired. Folks are way too quick to throw away working tech for the newest shiny thing these days.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239572#Comment_121239572

haha - yes I can see why you might think I work for one of these type of companies. 😁

Imagine it though, more people buy new more regular and then the costs come down , before you know it in the shops your normally 500euro washing machine comes down to 350 quid

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239657#Comment_121239657

yep sorry it was a long post ...

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239682#Comment_121239682

€500 is a premium washing machine anyway, and when the alternative is €80 on adverts, €350 is still ****. Plus a pile of kit sent to the dump when it is still working

John_Rambo

Throw away culture at it's finest. Head to the city Andy, cobblers, repairs, alterations, hand-me-downs, doggy bags, waste reduction... you'd be horrified!

Andy From Sligo

have you seen a pile of shyte though some people sell on second hand over here though, "hardly ever used washing machine - in great condition" - it looks like its been stored in a leaky shed, rusty, grubby and the writing is all worn off the front and things broken off . I scour the second hand adverts quite regularly and I am always coming across listings like that or near it.

Very lucky if you do come across something second-hand and it really is immaculate condition 'as new' haha

breezy1985

Crazy idea.

With the price of sex toys now many of us can only afford second hand vibrators.

babyducklings1

Wouldn’t buy second hand electrical stuff or take it for free unless it was from a family member or good friend and knew it was like new, would prefer to do without otherwise. But it’s what people can afford and true loads of good stuff gets dumped when it just needs a good clean and could be in perfect working order . Think landlords who put second hand or faulty goods in a rental are just cheap skates though. Christmas lights are a definite fire hazard I think or used to be anyway. Think an electrician is the best person to answer your question though.

Mrs OBumble

Do you have some statistics for us on the number of people who are killed each year by rogue second-hand appliances.

And I'd love to how an appliance is ok to use in my house (because I brought it new 5 years ago) but not OK to use in a neighbour's house because it somehow became Possibly Faulty by my selling it.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239746#Comment_121239746

Thats a good idea yes - a hand me down from a family member at least you know where its coming from

Yes its a shame if its going to recycling yard just because 'all it needs is a clean'

you ought to see the price of the spares for washing machines and large appliances though these days that is not helpin they can be a fierce price.

you imagine say for example a motor €120 - then a person to call out and fit it could be €150 ... some people will say, Sod that I can go out to Currys and buy a bloody spanking new washing machine with a least 12 months warranty for that and more than likely delivered to the house, plumbed in and old one taken away free of charge ... then of course their old one goes down tip / recycling (if they dont get it taken away) , lovely if you could say 'ah it only needs a motor and try an sell it to try avoid it going to tip but how many people are gonna buy a washing machine with a knackered motor even if the rest of it is ok?

kneemos

Often wondered about those refurbished phones. Reackon if they're working the most they get is a wipe down.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239750#Comment_121239750

good points - you dont always die from electrocution , you can still get a nasty shock and it can still be dangerous. Would it make the statistics data for how many people get shocks or a burning smell starts coming from it? - I doubt it very much.

as someone mention above here when they get old (especially the quality how things are made these days) they can become dangerous over time (insulation in cables/wires break down , other things could get dust, with fluff inside can get hot and catch fire (especially the case with tumble dryers) - and its all what if's isnt it, just because its served you well after 5 years it doesnt say when something is going to go wrong and go dangerous ... it just does. You have more chance of a used item being more dangerous than a brand new electrical item (well apart from if its a manufacturers fault and in which case they normally send out a recall of the item on it)

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239797#Comment_121239797

yes , its normally the chargers that catch alight - the cheap replacement ones . although phones get really hot when charging the only one I think I remember were recalled for catching alight and exploding was those older samsung ones wasnt it I think, the S8 I think it was ... and I think they all got recalled.

But yes anything even with batteries in can burn - I remeber a story a few years back of a TV remote burning a whole house down , I think it got stuck down back of a sofa 9as it happens to a lot of us) and something like a cushion was wedged onto it somehow and was pressing the buttons and either the batteries overheated or the chip inside or some resistor got hot and then it caught alight on the cushion and the whole house went up in flames ... all because of a TV remote. It doesnt happen often ... but it can

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239814#Comment_121239814

A used item is well past the sharp bit of the bathtub curve and a brand new item is at the start. So no, you do not have more chance of a working used item being dangerous.

Padre_Pio

Your entire post could be applied to cars.

How many dodgy cars with dodgy maintenance histories are sold daily in Ireland.

How many gremlins lurking under the bonnet with the potential to cause harm to the occupants. So let's ban second hand car sales. You want a car? Well buy a new one.

Andy From Sligo

just as a precautionary in any case I would urge anyone who has bought a used secondhand washing machine/tumble dryer, fridge, dishwasher, table lamp, hairdryer, toaster, kettle in fact anything electrical that would normally come with a moulded plug on them but where it looks like the moulded plug has been cut off by the last user and replaced with a normal 13a 3 pin plug to take it apart and look very carefully - has the screws been tightened nice and tight, is the earth wire attached (if the appliance uses an earth wire) make sure there are no frayed wires, make sure its wired correctly (looking from back of plug off, blue wire on left, brown wire on right and green and yellow to the top) and make sure the cord grip at the bottom is gripping tightly the outer insulation of the cable, check it has correct rated fuse fitted and make sure all the brass pins are shiny and not dull looking and make sure the casing of the plug is not damaged or cracked, this is the least you can do and do quite easily. You would be amazed the amount of people who have chopped off the manufacturers moulded plug from the factory (for one reason or another) and fitted / wired up themselves a plug onto it .... and done it totally wrong! . - its no good leaving it to chance and saying well its working OK or that it has been working OK since you bought the item only to find one day something happens and you get a shock or it starts to catch fire.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239886#Comment_121239886

of course your right but there might need to be a cut of point somewhere - of course you cannot say because dangerous cars or potentially dangerous cars are being sold on a regular/daily basis so lets not have regulations on dangerous used electrical goods - it does not work like that , there are organisations/regulations out there that are supposed to keep us safe (well as safe as possible) from buying or using a defective car - there is absolutely nothing as it stands of someone going out buying a defective used electrical item, potentially dangerous that could harm electrocute or catch fire, plugging it in and using it - you dont have to have something like a NCT done on your home appliances once a year to see if they are still safe/working safe and are not a hazard .. maybe there should be LOL . Would be a nightmare I should imagine , but I could see it. Electrician comes in , checks the insulation on your appliances and gives them a once over if they are good he signs them off ... if they are faulty and a hazard (as in fire risk or electrocution risk) he 'fails' them and then you got to replace it with a new one.

zg3409

Repair cafe in Dublin October 21st 2023. All electrical items are checked and pat tested. You can bring all sorts of items to be repaired.

https://www.makecreateinnovate.ie/repair-cafe

elperello

I wouldn't support a total ban.

If the machine looks worn out and rough not many will buy it.

Buyer beware will sort out most of your concerns.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239953#Comment_121239953

There is literally no regulation with buying and selling a dangerous car, unless you could prove the seller knew it was dangerous at the time.

Caveat Emptor

The NCT is a very basic compliance check at best.

I think your suggestion has good intentions, but I think it's a solution in search of a problem.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239953#Comment_121239953

Oh fu-ck off. Its bad enough that Vans have to be tested just one year after being bought brand new. Crazy at least give the company a set milage or a couple of years before thet need to be tested otherwise why bother buying brand new?

Now you want appliances tested too lol.

As for appliances being tested if its plugged in its safe because almost all houses these days have RCDs fitted so the slightest leak of current and it will trip which means no power in the sockets anywhere which means the person is safe. That is the idea behind RCDs. Now if there is a house or two out there without one then them people are living dangerously and I suggest they get an upgrade.

Ask me this if someone's appliance did fail or an unscrupulous electrician decided there was something wrong or dangerous with one and there was not who would pay for the new appliance especially if a person was struggling money wise?

Not everyone has savings in their banks or have family supporting them are able to go get money off a SWO for emergencies.

Tow

I think we should ban candles both new a second hand. This will stop tennants burning down their landlord's houses. I speak from experience.

Andy From Sligo

blimey, off tangent a bit its gone from banning used electrical items which was the original question to banning vehicles , which whilst valid is not particularly what I wanted to discuss - but if peeps want to open up a new post on banning vehicles and candles or any other dangers of stuff I will surely take a look at their post out of curiosity.

anyway back to buying used electrical items - I wouldn't wholly trust RCD/MCB/RCCBO's to protect if a equipment is supposed to be fitted with an earth and its come undone in a plug or appliance side or someone replace a twin and earth cable with just a 2core cable or insulation breaking down .

In these kind of situations (and although this can happen as well on new appliances as well) as well I doubt a RCD/MCB helped avert these situations and if there is not enough of a short or earth leakage to trip the breakers:

BrianD3

How many fires and electrocutions are caused by faulty appliances vs misused appliances? If someone buys a new tumble dryer and lets it fill up with fluff, blocks the vent, stops and restarts it in the heating cycle, runs it when there's nobody at home - they're an idiot. If I buy a used TV off done deal and the lead and plug (moulded) look ok then what are the chances that it will cause a fire? Very low. Also, RCDs etc. should trip for some problems albeit not all.

dxhound2005

Customs will have to look out for a new range of contraband, second hand radios and the like coming in from eBay. And across the border. And giving away second hand electrical stuff will also be illegal. I think an amnesty scheme should be included, where offenders can hand in their stuff, without fear of prosecution.

No, absolutely not.

theres already plenty enough ewaste being generated from manufacturers such as Apple & Samsung making it impossible to repair their phones and other products easily before we start banning second hand sales.

You’re basically asking should we have laws that decide what people can do with their own property here.. so even if you buy a brand new washing machine or phone it wouldn’t even be yours.

the very idea that prices would drop as a result is absurd as well. I bought a Samsung washing machine a few weeks ago, cost just about €600. By your logic if second hand models were not for sale it would be cheaper, however, that’s not true at all if anything it would be the opposite, since there’s no other option they could charge what they like!

Then there’s the fact of the matter some people just can’t afford full whack. But does that mean they shouldn’t have it?

Fire risks are not any higher with electrical goods because they were bought used either imo that’s just paranoia.

nachouser

What about second-hand appliances used in second-hand houses? Madness, I assume.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241283#Comment_121241283

Wouldnt e-waste eventually go down because people would be buying new machines and they could be more reliable than old worn out used machines? - plus of course you are buying brand new machines where normally the manufacturers offer at least 12months warranty on parts (sometimes parts & labor) and you are more likely to get it repaired under warranty (if the repairers do not play the uneconomical to repair card and manufacturers continue to keep parts readily available in stock) and not chuck it out like they would be more likely to do with a used/worn out one so cutting down e-waste that way.

I am not sure what you mean about buying a new machine and it 'not being yours' it will be if you buy the machine outright.

The idea of prices dropping is that demand for new appliances would increase massively if used items were 'banned' and (greed aside) more (mass) production of something should bring down prices in manufacturing and (hopefully) the manufacturers would (should) pass these savings onto customers .

Thats not too bad a thing - about if they cannot afford full whack to buy something they would miss out - this is what people used to do years ago before credit , if they could not afford it they simply did not buy it (live between their means) now these days there is high interest credit payments and loan sharks available for the poorer people who cannot afford to buy items outright and then that has created even more problems in itself for many people.

risk is risk, even if nothing happens - you are 9 times out of 10 'buying blind' - most people cannot gain who much an item has been used and how much its components have worn out inside and become considerably dangerous/a risk - why not take out the whole risk and buy a brand new with all new components, never used item which (bar manufacturers recall) should be absolutely safe .... and if not you do have a bonifide retailer and manufacturer to go back to should you spot (or smell) or something not sounding right/acting right. - its not paranoia - its just logical that by rights (unless you really have got lucky and bought a hardly used appliance with a couple of uses) a brand new appliance is going to be safer that an older used/worn appliance (bar product safety recalls from the manufacturer which happens very rarely)

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241299#Comment_121241299

it depends whether you can afford to take chances and take a chance on how good (safe the appliances all are) if you had the money and want peace of mind you could get a electrician in to test each appliance for PAT and also check your wiring in your house while there and that all your MCB and RCD in the consumer unit are all working and tripping as they should, and an earth check of the house you just moved into

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241396#Comment_121241396

The answer to your first paragraph is an outright no. People would be buying cheaper crap that breaks down even faster, and manufacturers would have a direct incentive to make sure stuff is both unreliable and unrepairable

dxhound2005

I just remembered this Oldest Technology in your Home thread. I think we should try to make contact with these people to save them from burning down their houses. Andy, please avert your eyes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058314293/the-oldest-technology-in-your-home/p1

Ubbquittious

Id go the opposite way and ban new stuff for about 3-5 years. Get people used to repairing again. I am after joining a repair shop down the local library where i fix electronics. Hope it gets more popular

Ubbquittious

Think Andy is just after ordering a few containers of cheap appliances from Shenzhen and doesn't like competition

Andy From Sligo

if not banned (used electrical items) - then only make it that used electrical items can only be bought from certain places.

that means, general members of the public banned from selling used electrical items/appliances and that the only way you can purchase a used item such as that from designated shops/outlets/warehouses who have thoroughly tested the items before they are put out on display or sold for safety (against fire and electrocution risks and dangerously worn out components) and a warranty of 3months or something - this would make buying more safer (and the item safer) and a port of call for if people did buy such from an establishment and have a problem with the item .

pleasant Co.

Sounds like you’ve got a vague solution - that you’re still retooling on the fly - for a problem that just does not exist in any meaningful way.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241636#Comment_121241636

oh i wouldn't say fires and electrocutions do not exist from faulty used and worn out / EOL second-hand appliances - quite the opposite

Ger Roe

There is too much throwaway these days. I once pulled a few Sky Satellite boxes out of a skip to find that a capacitor in the power supply had obviously failed and just needed to be replaced - cost = just a few cents. This is a common fault in a lot of domestic equipment that spends considerable time in 'standby' mode. There are a considerable amount of domestic entertainment items that can not be simply physically turned off. (power isolated). I was in a re-cycle center soon after and saw two more satellite boxes in the bin, but was prevented from removing them on 'safety' grounds.

I also went to re-cycle an old washing machine in a council re-cycle facility, but had pulled various parts out, that I could use - drum, switches, motor, cables etc. All that was left was basically some plastic housing and the metal case. On taking it out of the car, a jobsworth council employee came across and said they could not accept it, because I had stripped it. It was then that I realised the council depot was more of a re-sell operation for commercial purposes than a true re-cycle operation for the consumer. As far as I was concerned, I was doing my own re-cycling in reusing the parts, all I expected them to do was to process the left overs - they however wanted the entire unit to sell on.

The amount of equipment that gets dumped and replaced for silly reasons is a disgrace.

Andy From Sligo

people should not let increases of e-waste cloud the safety of appliances in the home either. It is more important to have safe (or safe as possible) electrical and electronic appliances than trying to put spanners in the works such as getting rid of perfectly working appliances will make e-waste situations worse.

take recycling a washing machine for example. If recycled properly most of the washing machine should be able to be nearly all recycable. salvage the good safe working components and sell as spares , The wires stripped out and copper from the wire is valuable, the metals used on the circuit boards the plastic melted down and used in other manufacturing (in fact I think I read somewhere one manufacturer was making outer drums out of their brand new washing machines from old recycled melted down drums from old machines) - then whatever metal is left from old washing machines can be used/sold as scrap metal

ButtersSuki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239660#Comment_121239660

Whilst I agree in principle with your point it’s often cheaper to replace than repair, or it’s so similar in price that you’d be daft to repair when you can get a brand new item for not much more than the cost of repair. It’s also not exactly easy to find repairmen, and even when you do they’ll want a call out charge to tell you “I’d just buy a new one if I was you”. All of these I know from experience.

pleasant Co.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241674#Comment_121241674

And I would counter your claim by simply pointing out that after pages of posts you have yet to present any figures supporting your opinion.

I’ll also point out I specifically said that your work in progress solution(s) seek to fix a problem that does not exist in any meaningful way.

I would, genuinely, like to see where your evidence of significant “fires and electrocutions” “from faulty used and worn out / EOL second hand appliances” is coming from. I suspect whatever source you provide will show “quite the opposite”.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241674#Comment_121241674

So show us the statistics.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241674#Comment_121241674

Proof please.

You have such a bee in your bonnet about this that you surely must have cold hard statistics to show that you're not just doing a weird shill for buying new.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121241731#Comment_121241731

I know what you mean, but there really needs to be a societal shift towards repair somehow. We're throwing out way too much stuff.

When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, you could bring your TV, VCR etc in to be repaired. It was far cheaper than buying new items.

The move back towards making batteries replaceable in devices by the end user is a great move for example.

Sure if you think about it, plenty of items thrown out still work, they don't even need to be repaired. folks just want to upgrade to the latest and greatest.

Andy From Sligo

Well it seems to have turned into that I have to start providing statistics now and hard facts otherwise people won't believe it happens which is rubbish. of course there are a lot of dangerous used secondhand appliances out there being sold (maybe some brand new ones as well) .

of course I cannot offer any statistics because that would involve me doing lots of searches to find them (and of course not all fires and electrocution will have been recorded or reported anyway so will be a waste of time. its all just my personal beliefs at the moment. I don't feel strongly enough that I am going to use my time up to find instances and dates and figures. but if you want cold hard facts the same information is out there what will be presented to me if you want to take the time and do your own research.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121239814#Comment_121239814

You do always die when you get electrocuted as electrocution means death by electric shock.

If you got an electric shock and you're telling me about it you weren't electrocuted.