No Prison Space

Quitelife

Met an old schoolmate yesterday who works as a courtclerk , gave him a rub about leniancey of courts etc .

He goes onto tell me Judges are more or less told to send as few people as possible to jail as there is no capacity , the only crimes that will guarantee you jail are murdering someone, with a lot less for manslaughter, Sexual offenders & Republicans After that only if your a top top end Drug dealer or multiple convicted Burgular will you be likely to get a prison sentence .

Is it any wonder there is so much criminality going unpunished in Ireland leading to so much misery all over the place with mid to low level criminals laughing at the law abiding.

kirk.

We could repurpose the Argos stores at a pinch

Bullocks

It's a joke, we badly need a couple of big prisons built.

I don't know why more people aren't looking for them.

Scummers and repeat offenders know only too well that they won't get much time for this very reason, it's the reason for criminals are so blatant these days and the guards must be loosing the will to bother arresting them when they know they can't be imprisoned anyhow.

If the state can't fund them maybe we should be looking at privately built prisons

tayto lover

Release Barabbas.

SEPT 23 1989

big prisons + long sentences = very bad for the legal profession

just keep them rolling in day after day building up those convictions and bill the state by the hour

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202093#Comment_121202093

Yeah, just look at how bad the US legal profession is doing.

Seriously, do you think at all above the superficial before making ridiculous statements like this?

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202120#Comment_121202120

the prison system is big business over there has been since the 90's

plenty of money to be made putting men behind bars long term

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121200434#Comment_121200434

Why build more? Just throw the scum in on top of each other.

BlueSkyDreams

When was the last prison built does anyone know?

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202298#Comment_121202298

It is indeed. Huge business for the prison system and the legal profession in the States.

Which shows that your claim that the Irish legal profession is somehow conspiring to prevent expansion of the prison system over here due their own financial ends is absolute nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202784#Comment_121202784

You are the one talking absolute nonsense.

Plenty in the legal system are absolutely creaming it from legal aid payments.

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/top-criminal-legal-aid-lawyers-earn-over-eur690000

Blarney_man

Build one on Cliffs of Moher, make holes all over the thing, just so the wind annoys them in between Premiership games that they watch at our expense

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202830#Comment_121202830

They are indeed, but they’d also be creaming in even more if we had more prisons and prisoners. The claim that was made here (and is often made here) that the legal profession are conspiring to prevent prisons being built is patent nonsense on every level.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202963#Comment_121202963

But if Anto isn't in prison, and notches up 100+ convictions, with free legal aid each time, the solicitor/barrister does far better than if Anto gets incarcerated and can't make any more appearances in court?

nachouser

Screenshot 2023-10-06 202820.png

Current prison capacity.

Costs about 80k a year to keep someone in prison.

366m and change a year.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202996#Comment_121202996

You seem to think that Anto will just head off to prison and that’s that. You’re failing to take into account that more imprisonment will result in more appeals, more claims for incidents in prison, more robust (and therefore more expensive) defence strategies. The legal defence of prisoners costs more overall that of non-prisoners.

And even if the legal profession were to lose out on money from increased imprisonment (which they most certainly won’t), where’s the evidence that it’s them that is preventing prisons from being no built. Do you really think it was a cabal of lawyers that scuppered Thornton Hall? Please…

seanrambo87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202784#Comment_121202784

It's big business in America because they have privatised prisons. They benefit from slave labour and a government subsidy per client. It's in their interest to keep agreeable clients (non violent drug offenders etc..) in as long as possible. It is not in our interest to go down that route. We are our own people we should deal with problems our own way. Not try to emulate a different culture. Build more prisons and back our Gardai. Simple. I've no problems with a Gard dishing out common sense a la lugs brannigan. Reinstate reasonable chastisement of our children.god knows there's a lot who need the fear of authority slapped into them. There's a quote I like, hard times make hard men, hard men make times good, good times make soft men, soft men make hard times. I think we're over run with soft men.

Fighting Irish? Ha, don't make me laugh

Tefral

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202362#Comment_121202362

I was involved in the recent Limerick Prison upgrade, Grim place, Especially the Womens wing. they pretty much doubled the capacity of Limerick Prison in the last year and a half.

I was involved in the Original Works to Thornton Hall but that was canned.

twowheelsonly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202362#Comment_121202362

New Cork Prison in 2016 but that was only to replace the old one and capacity wise isn't much bigger.

New wing for the females in Limerick in the last year. Added roughly 30 female beds.

Cloverhill, Dochas (Mountjoy Females) and Midlands were all completed and opened around 1999/2000

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202340#Comment_121202340

Issue with that is pile them all on to each other more violence happens so somebody get's the **** beaten out of them. Next the state/taxpayer gets sued and said criminal wins a fortune. My issue is why are judges giving soft sentences or suspended sentences beacause the prisons are too full? That shouldn't come into the equation. Sentence the person appropriately and let the prison system sort out the accommodation arrangements. Re open Spike Island they have plenty of room.

Strumms

last February is was reported there were 4,416 prisoners in custody with only a 4,411 bed capacity across the system, that was according to figures from the Irish Prison Service themselves…

We’ve about what 5.1 - 5.2 million people here and only 4,411 prison spaces ? the capacity of Dalymount Park currently is about ….4,300

Limericks female prison was 164% of capacity.

thats illustrating the absolute dearth of prison capacity… and it’s shows how little interest the political system and its inhabitants have for the irish citizens… state and citizens money which is and was magically appearing and will probably continue to appear for years to help the plight of the Ukrainian citizens and others but the very foundational needs of this country and Irish citizens just gets put on the back burner. What a great country, what a time to be alive.

billyhead

What about Spike Island if they invested in it?

InAtFullBack

There should be a mix of private and public prisons in Ireland as clearly the appetite in political circles is not there to address the capacity issue. It would be the perfect job opportunity for the failed bouncers/doormen of Ireland to actually excel in a career.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203582#Comment_121203582

Bouncers wouldn't do any better minding prisoners

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203576#Comment_121203576

It's owned by Cork County the past twenty years and it's an award winning tourist attraction

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121200442#Comment_121200442

Welease Wodger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij0N7le-UpI

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203488#Comment_121203488

5.3 million now.

1.5 million more people since 2000, or a 40% increase.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203690#Comment_121203690

I wouldn't be losing much sleep over that - would you? Rather a convict at the end of a raw deal than some poor chap on a night out celebrating after a hard weeks work.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203582#Comment_121203582

Genuine question but how would the financial situation work ?

if it costs circa 80,000 just to keep a prisoner for a year….

privately they will need to bill the state around you’d imagine 110,000 - 120,000 a year per prisoner…. They have the same or similar costs but they need to make a profit on each inmate…

Get Real

Agree we could do with more prison space and would have no problem with the state funding building and running as they currently do. Imo privatisation of prisons is an absolute no go. The UK made a hames of it.

Firstly, the fact that a private company might be incentivised to cut corners on running the prison and rehabilitation.

Secondly, the staff are employed by g4s on 13 or 14 quid an hour. It's not really a career. There's no loyalty to the job or building a life around it. There's no pension. And the staff don't actually see themselves as prison officers. More "I'm staff here and the problems that are happening aren't actually my issue to fix"

Look at this in the UK: https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/a-prison-officer-will-get-killed-staff-warn-of-chaos-and-violence-inside-flagship-super-prison-12974748

Low wage, can apply like you would for a retail job, your mates in prison can encourage you to apply. Your real wage is working for the prison gangs and being paid by them. And if it gets a bit hot under the collar, resign and take another job paying similar money, the job you had before.

Varik

Our prisons were built when labour was cheap, a mass of cells in wings releasing them in largish communal areas where you need a large group of guards to manage.

New prisons should be built with cells split into very small groups with own communal area sealed off from rest. Smaller number of guards needed at peak. Have some cells fully separated to let prisoner choose to self isolate.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121200434#Comment_121200434

well yes if you want most of the country's money to go on prisons then yes we can look at privately built and operated ones.

there is a reason we and i believe most countries have quite rightly stayed away from that idea.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202340#Comment_121202340

that makes things even more difficult for those having to work in them, who have an even more difficult job then they need to, due to the current prisons being over capacity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202830#Comment_121202830

creaming it? no

your figure is for all those who do legal aid cases as a whole, rather then a figure for each individual.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203168#Comment_121203168

the world has moved on from lugs branigan, different era and a whole different world and society.

that nonsense will no longer work in today's society, and quite rightly so.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204769#Comment_121204769

Did you read the article? One individual earned €692,000 in legal aid fees.

Almost 700k to one person isn't creaming it in your opinion?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121203362#Comment_121203362

spike island was closed for good reason and will not be reopening, no matter how many times people call for it to do so.

it was a difficult to work, very expensive prison to operate and was way out of date by the time of closure.

it is a tourist attraction now and is much better for it, providing a better service as that then it ever could a prison.

we need to build modern efficient to operate prisons rather then harking back to old unfit for purpose ones which can't serve their function.

hymenelectra

Overpopulation symptom number 153.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204831#Comment_121204831

no as there is no such thing as over-population.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121204917#Comment_121204917

Squeeze 12 people into your bedroom, throw your arms up and cry "the problem is that we need to increase the size of my bedroom!"

Just pure and utter fooking ignorance.

Hence the state of the country, exactly the results of ignorance.

Reality is looming large on this shitshow.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205067#Comment_121205067

no the state of the country is down to lack of investment due to lack of political will.

we know why people like you really scream about over population so that guff isn't going to work with me.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205658#Comment_121205658

And why do we need all this extra infrastructure.....?

What other new element of Ireland has grown lockstep over the precise same time frame as the lack of infrastructure?

Are you going to tell me about "the economy"? The economy that is an abject failure in its purpose, ie the improvement of society and its infrastructure?

Are you going to tell me about the "need" for more migrants to fill the labour shortage, while ignoring that the labour shortage is worse than ever despite hundreds and hundreds of thousands extra people?

Ignorance to reality has gotten us where we are. As to your pavlovian-like trigger of "I know what you're REALLY saying!", that's just ignorance too.

Agent Coulson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121202362#Comment_121202362

The Midlands in 2000.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205854#Comment_121205854

the economy is doing well and unemployment is at the lowest it's been since the boom.

the lack of infrastructure investment over the past decade is down to lack of political will because voters vote for parties who won't deliver such infrastructure.

the reality you talk of is not reality, it's just what you want to be reality so you can scream about "da migrants"

as i said, there is no over-population, that's just the latest "new world order" conspiricy theory nonsense.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205905#Comment_121205905

"The economy is doing well" at what?

What is the economy doing?

I'll tell you what it isn't doing. It isn't providing housing. It isn't fixing healthcare. It isn't providing enough teachers. It is isn't providing enough prisons. It isn't providing enough transport. And so forth.

So when the asinine argument is put forth that "we need more migrants for the economy that already doesnt work, in an environment exemplfying the effects of overpopulation", it's just plain ridiculous.

It's a pigs ear of an idea.

Just as stupid as citing the growing labour shortage despite there being hundreds and hundreds of thousands of extra people. "That's working out terribly, let's double down!"

An economic fallacy, amply observed, readily explained.

Have you got anything else besides that fallacy, or is that the limit of the programming?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121205934#Comment_121205934

the economy is providing enough funding to do all of those, it is the politicians refusing to spend the money because it's not a priority for their voter base by the looks of it.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206000#Comment_121206000

Whether the economy is not working, or not utilised, the defacto reality is that it is of no benefit.

The multiple, multiple deleterious effects of feeding the unuseful economy that is based on a pyramid scheme of ever growing migrant labour is a fallacy then.

If at a certain point in time there was a so-so economy matched with a so-so infrastructure, that would be head and shoulders above this phenomenon right now.

Ie, the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of extra people have had the exact expected effect on infrastructure, while providing no benefit.

Or to put it more succinctly perhaps, for every actually beneficial migrant, say a doctor who has capacity to care for 10 people, we are adding 20 migrants per migrant doctor. It's not just null and void, its net negative.

Ditto for housing. One migrant builder that can build 2 homes, imported along with enough other migrants to fill 3 houses.

The mathematics of this insane economy clearly do not tally up. Just look at anything and everything based on capacity, such as prisons, and we are over that capacity.

We largely weren't over-capacity, and then we had mass migration, and then we were over-capacity. That's the order of events.

Cause and effect.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206106#Comment_121206106

we were absolutely over capacity for a long, long time, and then the politicians refused to invest due to their voter base deciding that investment in infrastructure and services was not a priority for them.

migration has only increased the over capacity by a small amount, remember most of the migrants coming here are eukranians many of who will return home once mad vlad sees sense and sends his troops back home.

giles lynchwood

Deport all non national criminals back to whatever sihthole they came from for a start.All able bodied ukraines sent back to fight in the war.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206196#Comment_121206196

No, you're either being purposefully incorrect in your representation and order of events, or unintentionally wrong.

We didn't start at over-capacity.

1 the government facilitated mass migration.

2 capacity was soaked up by hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people.

3 the government did nothing to alleviate the childishly predictable effect of mass migration

4 the government continued to facilitate mass migration

5 the government continued to not address infrastructural collapse due to its migration policies

This didn't happen over night. This didn't happen over 1 year.

Each and every year the government could look at the previous years lack of capacity, could look at the previous years migration, and then facilitate it again for the current year. No mistakes were made.

The ukranian war simply highlighted the creeping effect of what was happening in the country for years upon years upon years. As a side note, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the majority of those ukranians are going to return to Ukraine.

If this is all too difficult to understand, consider the effect on necessary infrastructure in Ireland if, say, 250,000 non necessary migrants left in the morning. Housing availability, prices, healthcare, school places, and so on.

"Dramatic effect" wouldnt begin to describe it. But it works both ways, that same effect has been in operation for along time, and it is only that gradual boiling of the water that has made it less dramatic. But numbers are numbers.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121206256#Comment_121206256

the first one we already do unless there is a risk to them in their country of origin and that's not going to change.

the second one would be a breach of international law, as it's illegal to send someone back to a war zone and force them to fight in that war.

it's ultimately one's right to leave a war zone and refuse to fight in that war.