Bus crash off a flyover near Venice in Italy. 20 dead at least 12 injured.

AMKC

What happened? Did the bus crash or did the driver have a heart attack?

Looks bad anyway.

Saw it on the news, it certainly does look bad. Roads are generally excellent around the region. At least 20 dead according to an online source 🥲

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1819703/venice-coach-crash-live-multiple-deaths-italy-tragedy

Sometimes in these tragedies it is indeed an unexpected medical event that is behind it, but it’s very early days, so anything could have happened as far as we know.

There’s a number of overpasses along the rail line/parallel road heading into Venice, not sure yet which one is the site of the incident.

Gusser09

Jesus. Remeber the bridge that fell in italy. I wouldnt be in a hurry to go there.

https://twitter.com/michael45231497/status/1709318796916244717?s=46&t=LbNX7bxyxl_3B8DnynfQnQ

I presume the bus was coming from nearby Venice Airport. Having been on this route, it certainly didn’t feel at all dangerous. Driver deceased, whether entirely through the impact or initially rendered unconscious/deceased through a medical event. It’s certainly not something that happens every day in Italy.

This is one section from Streetview of a roadway by the rail in Mestre, at least here it appears well protected against such an accident.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121191694#Comment_121191694

Not so much where it happened

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67001518

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121191712#Comment_121191712

it’s hard to make our what’s what, but barrier in that section was obviously very inadequate and not enough to absorb the energy of the bus accidentally ramming it.

JP Liz V1

21 dead

RIP

At least 21 people have died after a coach fell 30 metres from an overpass and caught fire near Venice in northern Italy.

Another 18 people were injured in the crash on Tuesday evening, with Italian police confirming there were tourists of "various nationalities" on board.

There were at least two children among the passengers - and Ukrainian and German passports have been found at the scene, authorities said.

"Several of the victims were foreigners, we found Ukrainian passports," said Venice's mayor Luigi Brugnaro.

https://twitter.com/thecryptosapie1/status/1709336355434627238?s=46&t=LbNX7bxyxl_3B8DnynfQnQ

It really is like a horror movie here, seems to be just after it happened, barrier appears very inadequate here, though we don’t know the angle or force it was subjected to. Fire response vehicle nearly ran over done there there at the scene.

On Morning Ireland the hypothesis is that driver took ill at the wheel, apparently an on board camera showed him coming almost to a stop just before bus proceeded to plunge through barrier.

whisky_galore

It appears extraordinarily bad luck; if it wasn't methane fuelled, if it didn't happen on that poorly guarded piece of overpass there might not have been so many fatalities.

rogber

Horrendous and so sad. If driver illness then just insane bad luck, could happen on a plane too, double pilot heart attack then basically everyone is doomed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192164#Comment_121192164

Yes, seems to have been the combination of all the worst luck coinciding, which is often the case behind these awful tragedies. It seems that particular stretch was just beyond the heavily protected curving bit, where it would be presumed in most circumstances just to need the basic lower barrier to take most side impact. There’s conflicting reports, Morning Ireland claiming bus slowed right down to an almost standstill, other reports saying zero attempt at braking. Perhaps driver did initially apply brakes etc as he felt ill, but then his foot slipped as he went unconscious and bus went out of control.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192232#Comment_121192232

Very rare to have double pilot incapacitation scenario except in Airplane! the farcical movie. There was almost such an incident I know of on board a BA 747 which came very close to hitting a hotel in Heathrow a good many years ago. In the cockpit were 3 pilots iirc, the Captain, the first officer (my former flying instructor) and a third one in the jumpseat. The Captain had eaten separately, but the other two pilots are same meal in a restaurant and got food poisoning and spent flight in and out of the toilet. Approaching Heathrow first officer said he was feeling a lot better, and fit to do his duties as normal, but he found himself being gripped by cramps at a critical moment. They had to go around last moment and came rather too close to a hotel.

I imagine future technology that can be worn by drivers and interact with bus/truck/car etc could give an initial warning that driver had a medical issue and to pull over when safe to do, followed by an automatic braking of vehicle if driver failed to acknowledge situation and became further incapacitated. Of course one wouldn’t want that technology coming into operation erroneously in a busy motorway causing an unnecessary pile-up either.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192305#Comment_121192305

Wow what a story and a lucky escape. And yes I know double incapacitation is extremely unlikely, but freak events can happen.

On that note, do rich people with small private jets also usually hire two pilots just to have a backup? I get the impression (from some high profile crashes) no, but would surely make sense?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192739#Comment_121192739

Most private jets require two pilots , they are complex kit, just miniature big jets. There aren’t that many passenger aircraft certified for single pilot operation.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192331#Comment_121192331

There is current technology that can detect driver incapacitation just by analyzing their eyes. Also there is current technology that can detect obstacles. It's just a matter of making them mandatory on these kind of vehicles.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12592043/Venice-bus-crash-driver-medical-episode.html

This gives the most comprehensive detail so far on what exactly seems to have happened. Bus had drifted towards weak rail on a straight sloping part, seemingly having crossed bridge which is extremely well reinforced, it came almost to a stop and then quite slowly plummeted over. Bus was extra heavy because of electric batteries, and explosion was fiery. Doesn’t bode so well for future of electric vehicles, not until some solutions have been developed.

There is a distant video of bus breaking over barrier, it does seem to be a “slow motion” event. The roads in general were very busy at the time, so there’s be a lot of witnesses.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/04/venice-coach-bus-crash-italy-europe-latest-updates

This is an updating Guardian feature.

This seems to be the stretch. Barrier visibly corroded.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194297#Comment_121194297

That's got to be many years worth of corrosion and neglect too, no effort to de-rust or maintain a paint coating, no way to guarantee the design loads.

This afaik wouldn't be up to standard and bridges of that ilk are in dire need of retrofit.

Take this bridge in my local nearest metro

There's a reinforced concrete barrier

Even the DOT bog standard is this now, in spots where barrier failure means guaranteed fatalities, everything is reinforced concrete.

And the next step down from that is braided steel cable barriers that are designed to shock absorb and flex (thus not suitable for bridges where you could still end up going over)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLSw_4WWjoY

The design of the bridge in Italy is QED woefully inadequate and to add insult to that it's been horribly maintained. Which heads will roll

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192973#Comment_121192973

I think the type of vehicle was an issue. Would so many have died on a diesel bus?

There are other sections of road in the vicinity which are excellent, peculiar how that section got so very neglected. I’ve seen one or two questionable roads in Portugal, eg road Faro to Seville, skimpy attempts at safety barrier on some of Portuguese side away from border area.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194443#Comment_121194443

Also a type of use case the barrier was unlikely designed for. Busses have nearly doubled in mass when they go from diesel to electric.

Cordell

Some plausible explanation and analysis here on reddit:

https://tinyurl.com/2sx7z3xx

TLDR: it went thorough a gap in the barrier, and it was moving a bit too fast. But IMHO that kind of barrier won't stop a bus even when it is in perfect condition.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121192973#Comment_121192973

"Bus was extra heavy because of electric batteries, and explosion was fiery. Doesn’t bode so well for future of electric vehicles, not until some solutions have been developed"

I don't see how that would make any difference to the Weight of the bus compared to an ICE bus.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194506#Comment_121194506

they're comparatively heavier.

I'd await a full report, however I suspect it would regard the weight of the battery packs as a contributing factor to anyone crushed to death. They aren't designed with a roll-cage:

😔

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194479#Comment_121194479

Wow that’s a LOT of weight

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194561#Comment_121194561

Take with a grain of salt, ultimate gross vehicle weight may remain relatively unchanged (regarding the collision with the barrier esp.)

http://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/barcu/regact/2018/ict2018/appn.pdf

Where it concerns the look of the resulting crash, sadly it looks like a few people were potentially crushed under the load of the batteries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194495#Comment_121194495

It looks like the guardrail section before the gap has seen some previous impact.

Any kind of sudden medical emergency could have stuck the driver: a heart arrhythmia, stroke, gastro intestinal bleed; but common causes of sudden incapacity are seizures, be they the result of epilepsy, diabetes or an undiagnosed condition.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194594#Comment_121194594

It will probably be a landmark case in terms of safety determination of similar vehicles, and what can be done to ameliorate the risk. Looking at the European league of road safety Ireland & Spain are on a parallel, and Italy is far from the worst statistically considering its reputation. Norway & Switzerland are at the top, Moldova, Ukraine, Serbia others at the bottom. Against that, the most cautious driver I ever had was a Serbian chauffeur who drove as if he were going a very strict driving test.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194549#Comment_121194549

While heavier the positioning of the batteries would lower the centre of gravity and make it less likely to topple over would it not?

I heard this morning that it was a methane/diesel powered bus, and it was the methane coming into contact with the electric wires which caused the fire. This would seem more plausible to me. Also looking at the pics posted above it's the low height of the crash barrier that would look to be the main issue, that would've acted as nothing more than a fulcrum to a high vehicle, the railing behind doesn't look like it was designed to resist an impact, the crash barrier was supposed to do that but it's no way high enough.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194693#Comment_121194693

The railing behind is obviously only a basic guard for any person (persons police official etc) walking between road guardrail and precipice.