Will Russia Ever Become A Normal Country?

Straight Talker

Will Russia ever become a normal and civilised democracy? Will they ever start treating gay/lesbian people with respect? Will things change whenever Putin kicks the bucket? Sadly i don't see any of the above things happening.

Seamus4life

Define normal? We don't treat our elderly with respect, we ship them off to substandard warehouses to rot away and give them the joy of living their last few hrs in a dark corridor in a&e surrounded by junkies and the smell of urine .

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179801#Comment_121179801

You know a country where you can have a difference of opinion, without fear of being sent to prison or even being killed! A country that doesn't start a war with it's neighbours in a manner akin to Nazi Germany. A country where there are laws in place to protect LGBT people from violence. That kind of normal.

Something in the national character makes this very unlikely. Hard man politics seems to be the norm rather than the exception.

However as a country it's dying with collapsing population and an imploding economy due to systemic corruption. The Russian federation is likely to splinter due to exploitation from the centre (all those dying conscripts).

It looks very bad for Russia.

Seamus4life

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179821#Comment_121179821

Then the vast majority of the world's countries are currently not normal? There is no "normal" the words you are looking for is your type of normal. The vast majority of Russians are happy with their current normal. Poverty and war have been their lives since Genghis arrived 100's of years ago. Most cultures have no natural leaning towards what you consider normal, why force them?

Fr Tod Umptious

No it never will be and it never has been.

It's too big.

There are too many ethic groups and too many large minorities to make it work.

You have Slavic people in the west, Muslims in the south, central Asians in the middle, and Asians in the east, and the Jewish homeland in the east.

And within those regions you have smaller ethnic groups.

I know it's not part of Russia but look at the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict.

I'm sure there are many more such conflicts all over Russian simmering away.

The only way you keep a lid on all this is by a strong dictatorial regime in Moscow.

That's the way it has been for centuries from the Tsars all the way to modern day.

As for the LGBTQ+ etc, even if you had a softening of attitudes in the Slavic west, you wouldn't necessarily have a softening in Muslim regions.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179851#Comment_121179851

They're happy with their normal because they're brain dead zombies who don't know any better imo.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179862#Comment_121179862

That's a great analysis of the situation there.

Seamus4life

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179972#Comment_121179972

That's a crazy form of moral absolutism your peddling there. Very reminiscent of the British empires attitude to the natives they encountered.

kneemos

If the Russian people ever realise it's being run by a mafia for their benefits rather than the welfare of the country. Willing to send them off to fight and die to acquire more oilfields in eastern Ukraine.

A popular uprising is probably their only hope.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180070#Comment_121180070

They did it once .....

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179821#Comment_121179821

Lol. Ask Julian Assange where his freedom of speech got him.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179851#Comment_121179851

You can't really run this line when they're invading neighbours, engaging in mass murders of civilians and kidnapping children. Also they were signatories to multiple human rights agreements but have constantly violated them.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179851#Comment_121179851

So define you vast majority - do you know 5 Russians resident there, 2, none??? And nobody is talking about forcing them to do anything.

Field east

Nothing remains the same in the LONG TERM. Evenin geography/geology the earths plates move. Look at the climate and se levels/temperatures rising . And areas that were never flooded in recorded history got severely flooded this year.

So the same for politics , countries splitting etc. because of loads of precidences Russia will break up and will become ‘DIFFERENTLY NORMAL The three main questions coming out of this are :-

(1) what setup will cause the initiation of change?

(2) when will change happen/ begin to happen?

(3) what will the new norm be like?

a number of things - in isolation or a combination of them - could ignite the ‘Change’ such as :-

(1) change of leader

(2) how that change was brought about

(3) Georgia , Moldova getting their borders re established by removing Ru from their occupied lands. Note that Ru did ABSOLUTLY nothing to support Armenia recently, . I wonder why ? Was it too stretched with Ukraine occupying it?

(4) not all Ru think the same. There is a chasm between the ‘elderly’ and the ‘ young’ re where Ru should be going - especially with gears to , freedom , lifestyle, health and progress in general.

(5) the whole area of ICT is available to everybody globally including Ru, especially young Ru. The younger you are in Ru the more than likely you are to have a computer/ mobile phone or have a friend/neighbour who has. As they say knowledge/education is the only way forward. Would this access to ‘OTHeR KNOWLEDGE’ not get them to start thinking in ‘different ways’

(6) look at all the Ru that get involved in overseas business, buying soccer clubs in the UK ; buying up property in NORMAL Countries eg London in the Uk! . If Ru is such a Berger Motherland than any other country throughout the world , well why did they not stay at home - RU being a VAST country- and invest there. Is it because they saw some aspects of the lifestyle / business ethics in ‘normal’ countries that they liked and is not available in Ru

(7) Down trodden people eventually rise up , especially when they see a very significant % of the population living a VERY ELITICIST lifestyle.

(8 I could go on

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180338#Comment_121180338

(7) Down trodden people eventually rise up , especially when they see a very significant % of the population living a VERY ELITICIST lifestyle.

Exactly like they did in 1917.

And how did that work out?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316247/will-russia-ever-become-a-normal-country

What you are asking is will they become a modern Western country.

By the standards of most of the world they are open and liberal. Not saying much.

Someone had a good article pointing out that Russia is changing, but slowly.

Putin's Russia is a gentle place compared to the mind numbing savagery of the Soviet Union, post 1950s Russia was a brutal and murderous society, nothing compared to the Russia of 1917 to 1949, arguably the most evil and murdering society that ever or will ever exist.

Tldr: Yes, but but will it be this century, maybe not

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180095#Comment_121180095

And guess where some of the emigres ended up...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180515#Comment_121180515

The white Russian elites married into the east coast ruling class of the US. Some of the most fervent war mongers of the US today are descendants of these marriages. Mohrenschild, the link between JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald was one.

Russia's problem with the west isn't the actual fault of Russia, the west didn't want Russia after the Cold War collapse. Russia was refused entry into NATO. As soon as Putin was publicly against the War in Iraq the tone of the western international media completely changed and he and Russia started to be demonised.

All the 5 permanent UN security countries have blood on their hands but the media and the simple people amongst us see it as west: good Russia: bad.

Putin though needs to go, anybody who stays in power that long inevitably screws up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180583#Comment_121180583

The west in general certainly made a mess of the post cold war period which inevitably led to the rise of Putin and the current crisis. However the flaws in the Russian character run very deep and they cannot be excused from their general warmongering and empire building. The Russian nation could have been brought into the western sphere as partners and things might be very different now.

What Puti delivered was national desintegration and a total collapse of any civil order. I can't see ultimately how he did any good.

j2

So in order to become a normal country it has to be a lib's paradise? No it won't be becoming a lib's paradise anytime soon.

ancapailldorcha

No. It's always been a backwards sh*tehole and probably will remain so for the rest of the century, if not longer. Their absurd amount of resources is their one saving grace. It would have disintegrated a long time ago otherwise.

In virtually every other country, Marxism was debated and failed to catch on. In Russia with no tradition of free speech, they went and slaughtered each other in droves.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180515#Comment_121180515

How many times did Ireland rise up before we substantially got what we need. A bit to go yet IMO but hopefully it will be resolved peacefully

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180515#Comment_121180515

Re 1917 so therefor they should not try again. That’s over 106 years ago and know how etc, etc, etc, etc, etc has MOVED ON since

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180696#Comment_121180696

It would have to approach a democracy for a start. It hasn't been close for decades.

Kermit.de.frog

Russia has always been a mess of a country but it's not the totalitarian hellhole some seem to think. It's a relatively free country to live in.

In relation to Putin, as bad as he is, his rule is benign compared to much of what went before.

After the Cold War Russia did liberalise and open up immediately. Unfortunately with Soviet societal architecture suddenly removed the immediate transition to the free market didn't go well for those who depended on the state and a lot of people fell in to brutal poverty literally overnight. The country went in to steep and chaotic decline before Putin was installed.

His contract was simple with people - you get stability, my friends get rich and in return he gets to be leader.

Russians want stability and that's what he gives them. The alternatives could be a lot worse.

For the west with Putin it's better the devil you know.

What Russia needs is a longer transition to western standards and the free market than what occurred immediately after the Cold War.

clampedusa

If Russia splinters or starts to look like it might collapse, then that autonomous Jewish oblast may be making some quick strategic moves (such as evacuation plans). And reaching out to Israel and US. Plans are probably long drawn up and regularly updated.

You could probably even watch for events in that region for signs of forthcoming change. If theres some kind of shake up.

Edit: checked the wiki, seems the place is mostly only Jewish in name only.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180885#Comment_121180885

The west facilitated the oligarchfication of Russia, taking their cut as the wealth was funnelled out of Russia. It was disaster capitalism at its worst. They could have ran a Marshal plan to manage transition to post communism but instead they took part in the wholesale rape of the nation. As such I hold the west and particularly the USA responsible for the current state of affairs. The west created the soil on which a Putin would become the inevitable weed.

I think it goes back to the pevelant notion that Russi is the old enemy and so they thought the collapse of the soviet empire was the perfect opportunity to see them off once and for all. Stupid.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180944#Comment_121180944

I disagree with that. I'd say it had much more to do with the sheer speed of events. Nobody could have foreseen the collapse of the Soviet Union in the late 80's and the way it happened. The collapse of the Soviet Union was driven by Russia itself which dissolved it of it's own accord and allowed members to break away. Nobody at the time could have foreseen it so how could they properly plan?

Russia went all in with Glastnost and Perestroika. It was their choice. To say the world was shocked would be an understatement.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180119#Comment_121180119

Julian Assange was a traitor and has no one to blame for how his life has gone but himself.

Hande hoche!

The nuclear weapons complicate things somewhat. Otherwise there would be plenty of political leaders that would happily see the Federation replace by half a dozen smaller countries.

whisky_galore

They've never known real freedom for centuries, what you never had, you don't miss.

Most of them outside of big cities are pretty ignorant, in the proper sense of the word. Vodka swilling rednecks, almost a mirror image of the U.S.

To paraphrase Mrs Doyle, maybe they like the repression just a little bit too.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180885#Comment_121180885

Not a hell hole unless you're in minority groups, are a political opponent, whistleblow on the state, protest against the state actions or are a member of the free press. Iirc Russia was next to Afghanistan for press freedom and safety pre any invasion. Assassinations of journalists, whistleblowers or political opponents were happening throughout the 2000s. On top of that such assassinations were even happening to opponents in Western states.

The general Western avoidance of admitting Russia's steady decline into reduced freedoms and happily giving business to oligarchs in the likes of the UK enabled it.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316247/will-russia-ever-become-a-normal-country

I don't think it'll ever be normal in our lifetime, - normal in terms of rule of law and an elected parliament.

If Putin kicks the bucket, somebody else with similar ambitions will step in.

It's up to the west to keep the Russians engaged in the Ukraine, let the Russians bleed as much as possible, so that they don't have any other nasty ambitions, like the Balitcs or Poland. They'd be next and they'll know it.

Russia will be a threat to the West for the forseable future.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181650#Comment_121181650

It's not a threat, really. It would be to some countries were it not for NATO.

It's military is a joke. Look at how they've been so thoroughly humiliated by the Ukrainians. Flat terrain, numbers and a bigger economy and this is the best they could do.

The place is a tip, plain and simple. It's the rotten corpse of an empire too stupid to just peacefully collapse. It should be the second or third richest country in the world because of its resources but it's got an economy smaller than Spain's.

The sooner Putin does a Hitler in his comfy bunker, the better. It won't make the place normal but it'll be a bit less of a dump.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181699#Comment_121181699

The problem I have with a Putin - Hitler comparison is that Putin does have nuclear weapons, Hitler didn't or nearly had.

Just like Nazi Germany the West would have to get rid of the whole Russian regime and treat Russia like it did with Germany in WW2. Have it occupied, and slowly return it to a democracy the likes of other countries.

The chances of that happening are very slim to none at all, most likely the latter.

Thus, Putin or not Russia will be a threat or some sort of threat for a long time to come, to some countries more, to some countries less.

I don't think Putin is interested in Portugal, ( however one never knows ) but he sure is interested in the Baltics and Poland.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180036#Comment_121180036

Which is very much an example of liberals and their present day smug superiority. Go back 50/60 years and the same would be said of devout Catholic conservatives. The same smugness.

The similarity between the two? In their respective times, they controlled the media. Yes, all very 1984 I know.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181764#Comment_121181764

Poland and the Baltics are NATO countries so that definitely won't be happening and with Polands massive military spending and modernisation program Poland won't be on the cards either for Russia ,but Russia might have to deal with the poles coming for them at some point in the future

Who the **** would not aspire to be a liberal democracy ?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181764#Comment_121181764

I think it's a fair question to wonder if the Russian Federation even has the ability to launch a nuclear weapon based on the scale of corruption and the weakness of its military. Just because he gives the order doesn't mean it'll be obeyed. Russia would be burned from the face of the earth.

Hitler didn't have nuclear weapons but he did have a good supply of talented people in the military and civilian sectors. Putin's pals are cronies. None of them are going to risk anything for him when they can cross the border and fly to Heathrow.

He can be as interested in Poland and the Baltics as he wants but they're ready for him. They don't have Ukraine's corruption issues and they've US forces ready at their borders.

Russia a cesspit. It always was. It's vast amount of peasant levies made it a superpower in the nineteenth century. Now, it's a joke.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180885#Comment_121180885

How long were you living there Kermit to arrive at such a viewpoint?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181851#Comment_121181851

If that happens at some future date, you can be sure that Ukraine will be right beside them., if it even gets that far. As Dudaev rightly said " Russia will disappear when the Ukrainian sun rises" And sunrise has occurred, now we wait while it completes its arc across the sky.

TokTik

Russia is a normal country for Russia. People need to stop forcing their ideologies on other places. How’s Libya going now that the “West” liberated them from Gadaffi?

lizzyjane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181086#Comment_121181086

Do explain how he was a traitor? Suppose Snowden is a traitor also in your eyes?

By that logic, any journalist can be incarcerated without any due process for questioning the wrongdoings/war crimes of governments, quite an outrageously dangerous road to go down.

I suppose Jamal Khashoggi mutilation at the hands of the Saudi's was his own fault also?

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180535#Comment_121180535

Mate i stopped reading that post, after the bit saying that by the standards of most of the world they are open and liberal.

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180583#Comment_121180583

I would say the mistrust between Russia and the west, is more of a problem on Russias end now though. At least in the west people are free to have an opinion and freedom of speech unlike in Russia. I agree with your last sentence about Putin though.

I do know that country was a circus under the reign of Boris Yeltsin, and the Putin regime did substantially improve the economy there. Russia was an extremely poor and crime ridden country in the 90's. Putin will leave power eventually, but some sort of like minded puppet will probably be his replacement imo.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121182389#Comment_121182389

Snowden is nothing more than a common garden thief ,and a coward

Straight Talker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180696#Comment_121180696

A country where all people are treated equally is not liberal, it's just basic human rights. Human rights is not a liberal/conservative issue mate.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121182389#Comment_121182389

Yes they are both traitors. I hope they are both happy how they destroyed there lives. They exposed the west to Russia and other regimes like that by releasing military and war secrets that they had no business in releasing. Maybe some of the things they released was bad and wrong by the American military etc but it was not their right to release that. Because of the things like lSIS were formed and hated the west.

So yes they are both traitors.

Quote:

I suppose Jamal Khashoggi mutilation at the hands of the Saudi's was his own fault also?

:Unquote

No that was not his own fault. He was a good person and never did anything wrong. He was very unlucky.

L.Ball

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181865#Comment_121181865

Saudi Arabia.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181865#Comment_121181865

Vast swathes of the Middle East, chunks of Africa, parts of Central/South America/South East Asia, China and of course USSR 2.0 in development.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183479#Comment_121183479

You say that but has anyone actually asked the people what they want ?

Having a dictatorship imposed on you is not the same as wanting a dictatorship imposed on you.