Not a fair deal

square4

Hi

I want to put my mother in a nursing home but don't want the fair deal scheme, she has right of residence in house til she passes and land passes straight to me also,if she goes to a nursing home does state contribute or do I have to pay myself for her .

ohnonotgmail

if she doesn't own her own home then Fair Deal would work out better as they just take 80% of her income plus 7.5% of whatever other assets she may have.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058316028/not-a-fair-deal

You have a choice. You can pay the nursing home privately between yourself and your mother and anyone else in your family who wants to contribute.

Nursing homes start at about €1000 per week.

Or you can apply for the Fair Deal.

There’s no other contribution or help you can get from the state for this.

The nursing home needs to be paid, in arrears, usually twice monthly. You can pay in cash or set up a standing order with the bank.

Chiropody, hairdresser etc are extra and are usually billed monthly.

thomas 123

I'm ignorant on this subject but can you not go into a state run home or is that a no no?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/residentialcare/

Best of luck OP, I hope whatever happens you and your mum are happy with it!

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173548#Comment_121173548

State run homes are 1800 per week in many cases.

Fair deal makes alot of sense in most cases but people need to plan for these things.

In the ops case, fair deal seems to make sense unless the land is substantial and is still belonging to mother.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173548#Comment_121173548

All nursing homes, privately run or publicly run, are subject to the Fair Deal. It has to “fair” for everyone.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173566#Comment_121173566

If income, capital property land etc is substantial then the candidate for the nursing home and their family need to consult with their accountant/solicitor before they commit, or not, to the fair deal.

I can only speak here for what my own mother did in her and my particular situation. We were always best friends, I have no siblings, my father was deceased, so things were straightforward. My mother wanted me to get the family home and as much as possible without the state taking too much, so she made a strategy.

To begin with she gave me enduring power of attorney, just in case she ever lost her marbles or “became uncooperative” as she put it, which she never did, and it never had to be invoked. Then she sold the south Dublin semi-D family home, had all the proceeds transferred to me; at same time I chose a suitable apartment for her to come live with me. Paid the due tax which at the time worked out about same as inheritance tax would have. She divested herself such that she had no more than €1500 to her name. I made sure the last years of her life were the very best ones, and she had enough health to travel regularly with me right until her fairly “unexpected” death aged 89. She always said what she didn’t have the state couldn’t take, and held the “official” view that I bore no responsibility to her. She never did have to go in anywhere, but she was making sure that if she did I wouldn’t lose out by it. I had health issues and she knew I could have my life financially compromised at any time, so pulled out all the stops to provide for me.

My being an only child, our excellent relationship, and she having a very practical frame of mind, made this possible and straightforward.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173766#Comment_121173766

An elderly person can give all of their money and property to anyone they like. But:

1. If they gifted it at any time during the 5 years previous to them needing the Fair Deal Scheme then it will be still counted as the elderly persons wealth for the purposes of the fair deal.
2. The tax cut off for gifts between parent and child is currently €335,000, but much less if the relationship is more detached.
3. If an elderly person divests themselves of assets to a relative or anyone at all, really and then applies for a non con pension on the grounds that they have no income then they will be disqsulified.
4. Last point. Your mother gave you everything? If she had actually needed nursing home care in the end , you expected the tax payer to foot the bill. While you enjoyed the wealth she transferred to you. You do realise when you are referring to “the state” you actually mean the tax payer. Why would you think that you could transfer the care of your mother to the man on the street?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173628#Comment_121173628

Euthanasia it is for me so!

893bet

With regards to number 4…..it’s just prudent financial planning and nothing illegal or immoral about it. Not sure why you are doing the “tax payer will have to foot the bill” bit.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174348#Comment_121174348

So, you think it’s prudent for a perfectly healthy elderly person to transfer their entire estate to an adult child?

Bear in mind that for the purposes of Fair Deal the transfer of assets needs to have been completed 5 full years before the suggestion of nursing home care even comes into the reckoning.

So as a single aging person you have left yourself without even the roof over your head, risking that a row with or a change in circumstances for your child could leave you overnight looking for a bed in a hostel, just so you can avoid paying your own way?

It speaks volumes of you if you imagine that absolving yourself of any obligation to pay for your own nursing care is not “immoral”.

Part of the concept of the fair deal scheme is that the money recouped following the death of a comfortable pensioner goes back into the pot to make sure that a very poor pensioner gets the very same care and attention.

But… hey… who cares about the poor people, eh?! Not 893bet, that’s for sure?

Tell us this much… if you’re not paying for your parents nursing home care, and your parent is not paying for their nursing home care, then who is paying for it?!?

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174296#Comment_121174296

Yep. For some people it’s definitely more attractive to take their own lives rather then pay their own way.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174450#Comment_121174450

What a disgusting comment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121173953#Comment_121173953

That was in noughties btw, she died 2009. Do you object that my mother looked after my interests strategically? There was nothing illegal about what she did 😉

I personally believe strongly in a proper socialist system, something we have not got.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174437#Comment_121174437

Its prudent financial planning simple as. Leave the emotion out of it. If you don’t do it out of some moral objection then you are frankly silly. It’s perfectly legal tax avoidance as such.

You will pay at that time for care the same as “the poor people” will 85 percent of your income.

Assuming you were lucky enough to have built up a little nest egg and want to pass it on then it’s likely you paid your fair share of taxes along the way…..

The tax system has the 5 year “look back” which means you have to be in good health to take this approach.

If you take this approach as part of the transfer of a house there would always be a “right of residence” put in place by the elders solicited meaning you can’t end up with out a roof over you head. There are also maintenance packages typically put in place (but in the event of a fall out these may be more difficult enforce legally).

And yes you would need to have a trustful relationship with your son/daughter I think also.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174437#Comment_121174437

Believe me, there would never in a lifetime be a disagreement like that between myself and my mother. We absolutely adored each other. What was mine was hers and vice versa. She did a huge amount of selfless work, and was extremely charitable so there goes sone of the assumptions. She was always a “me last” person, the way she was brought up, I made sure she was top of the queue in her last years, when I could.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174464#Comment_121174464

So… you didn’t read the comment I was replying to? It’s right there…quoted in my post….

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174495#Comment_121174495

Don’t feel bad in the slightest. At every stage the “state” is there to finger your arse pocket so be thankful ye managed to shelter something from them in a perfectly legal manner.

Whats that saying…..don’t hate the player….

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174494#Comment_121174494

Ah yes. The old “I/my mother/father paid their taxes all their lives etc etc” line.

So, you would be encouraging absolutely everyone approaching old age (say 66) to get busy and sign their entire life’s savings and property (less €36,000 for a single person and €72000 for a couple) over to their nearest younger relative to avoid nursing home care costs.

Say, the roof needs replacing. Say there’s a serious illness. Say another family member lands in a spot of trouble (a spouse dies, divorce etc) and needs a bit of help, say you’d like to move house for whatever reason (you don’t own the house any more, remember? So you can’t sell it) how is that going to work?

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174593#Comment_121174593

So emotive.

I personally wouldn’t encourage anyone do anything. It’s quite an individualistic choice and really depends on the relationship between the two parties and the motives of the elder.

My perspective (for when I am an elder) is….Given there is limited advantage to the elder in the tranfer then I am not sure I would do it other than with a child. As a parent I want to give them every opportunity in life and as I “can’t take it with me” well then I will be doing my best to leave “it” to them and to the state coffers.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174634#Comment_121174634

Once again with the “state coffers”. The state coffers is the actual man in the street, his wife and their kids. If you have a different notion of what state coffers are, please share it with us.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174540#Comment_121174540

Once again the “state”. Yes. The other human beings living in Ireland. I would love to hear your theory on where the money would come from to pay for your SW payment if not from the “state”?

Donald Trump

The land can be excluded from the FD scheme if she was farming it and you are the designated successor.

There are other criteria which must be satisfied - it isn't just a matter of ticking a box.

If she only has a life interest in any of the property, then I don't see how that can be counted. A life interest can't be sold

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174864#Comment_121174864

If the state coffers belong to the man on the street and their kids. Then I suggest that family you mention asks for their cut of it….

Maybe my an elder divesting ther wealth early is their way of getting their share back?

As I have said it’s prudent individual tax planning to plan ahead for fair deal. Perfectly legal and certainly not immoral.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174884#Comment_121174884

State funds come from a huge amount of sources. Not sure the relevance of any of your points but you are very nobel, idealistic and foolhardy also perhaps. But different stokes for different folks.

You made do as you wish with your money when the times comes. I will be making damn sure my family keeps the most amount I can legally.

the14thwarrior

a comment on the "right to reside". to my knowledge the fair deal counts this as if it were their own home. which will substantially increase the fees you have to pay.

you will need to do a "dummy run" on the paperwork, and put down all the assets and see if it makes financhial sense.

it's not such a fair deal when you happen to have a house or land that is worth some money, and by some money, in today's housing market, that is no small amount for even a small house. and then your savings..... and if you have more than one pension they will take the lot.

and compare it to the person in the bed beside them that has no savings, "sold" their house or lives in council property, or their house is worth more by virtue of being in a nicer estate or beside the luas.

Nope, until you see what the state takes after a life of hard work and prudent savings, you would be shocked.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174948#Comment_121174948

And I sincerely hope that that love of money, and your determination not to share it with the weakest in society will sustain you, and your family, in your final years.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175048#Comment_121175048

Wrt “right to reside” I dont think you are correct. 5 years after the transfer then the house is not part of asset assessment. But I could be wrong.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175091#Comment_121175091

Oooooohh sir! well with over 2k in deductions from my monthly salary. I spend over 100 per week on diesel for a long commute so let’s not get into the excise duty. Plus all the other million incidental taxes……so I share plenty now with the weakest.

When I am old and if I am in need of care I am confident my offspring will also be diligent high earners and will be able to cover my care by way of their taxes from the state coffers; which at that point they will own part of…

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175048#Comment_121175048

To apply for the fair deal is one of a number of options you have if you need full time care in your old age.

You can ask your family to look after you. You can go and live with them or one of them can come to live with you.

If that’s not possible then you can pay professionals to come and look after you at home. You’ll also be means tested to see if you are entitled to any home help.

You can go to a nursing home.

You can pay the nursing home every week yourself and your loved ones.

Or you can apply for the fair deal. I agree if you’re very wealthy then you’re better off to take advice from your accountant as to wether you wouldn’t be better off just paying for it as you go along.

Either way, the nursing home needs to be paid and the taxpayer ( you call them the state) can’t withstand that burden.

Incidentally my mother has income of around 450 a week, a house worth 125000 and savings of around 85000. The cost to her is 445 per week in a home where the actual bill is 1000.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175126#Comment_121175126

This - the OP has a choice. It was common enough in the past for families to care of elderly relatives till death, not just parents but aunts and uncles. In return, this would be recognised in the will. Nursing and care homes were more for those who had no relatives or destitute.

Now that has all changed, families are less willing or able to look after elderly relatives and life expectancies have increased. Nursing homes with 24 hour care are expensive and need to be paid for. So the OP may decide whether to fund the home care privately or avail of the Fair Deal 'loan scheme'. But they can't eat their cake and keep it.

Cherry Blossom

My mum went into a state nursing home for a year. She resisted medical care, was made a ward of the court and was appointed a social worker and guardian ad litem. The fees for the nursing home were a bit more than €1800 a week. We applied for the fair deal scheme.

When my dad passed away he had a loan against the farm and no will. The bank insisted we all sign our right to his estate over to our mum who is a toxic alcoholic. I said I wasn’t comfortable doing so and wanted it to go in one of my brothers names, both refused. I was told I had no choice and reluctantly signed the form. So everything was in my mothers name and still is. The farm was not straight forward. All 4 of my dads sisters and their aunt who passed away many years prior had a right to reside in ‘the dwelling’ this meant their family home which is now a derelict shell, there was a question of whether there could be a legal argument that this referred to the newer house my dad built when I was 5 for our family. The same people also retained the right to a site on the farm. His sisters were asked to sign away their legal rights on the property so fair deal could be processed. They saught their own legal advice and were advised not to do this. This is a fairly small farm. There is also a second small farm on which my brother has built a house, the house is in his name and his wife’s. The land it is built on was in my mums. The whole thing was a legal nightmare. In the end there was a substantial shortfall of the nursing home fees. The land in it’s entirety was assessed as hers for the purpose of fair deal but they would only cover a portion of the costs due to other legal interests in the farm. I dont remember the exact figure but there was a shortfall of around €400 a week. We were told we (her children) would have to pay it. It was paid out of a small inheritance my mum received when her brother passed away. She was only in nursing home care a year. She’s at home now after her cognitive function was assessed when she was on a very good day and the ward of court was removed and she took herself home. She has 3 home help visits a day provided for by the hse. Home help is free. She lost her medical card at the first renewal after the ward of court was removed. She’s under 70. The whole thing has been a complete nightmare. She no longer has access to alcohol, but she has to be carefully managed to make sure things stay that way. Fair deal is often far from straightforward.

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174348#Comment_121174348

It absolutely is immoral to force the taxpayer to pay for your parent's care so you can have a better inheritance. Dress it up however you like but that's what it is.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175815#Comment_121175815

Times definately changed. Two parents working is almost a given now so there is not always someone one at home already is probably a factor. People living longer also. And often not in the greatest health with a high care need difficult for a non trained person.

I would hope to be able to care at home for my father when the times comes. But it really depends on the care need. A nursing home is the last option when all other avenues are exhausted.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178277#Comment_121178277

Ok. You are right.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178203#Comment_121178203

Wow what a mess.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178277#Comment_121178277

for some people, morality is focused on whatever they want on any given day.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178203#Comment_121178203

What a mess. Seems like very poor legal advice all around. She was deemed not eligible for the fair deal because of not being able to put a value on her property and income. Poor you. You’re better off owning nothing.

Deeec

The reality of fair deal is that an elderly person is better to have spent every penny they ever earned and own no property. Those that were prudent and saved hard during their lifetime and made sacrifices to own their own property are punished.

The op is right there is nothing fair about fair deal. Those that were careless and feckless with their money, or bone idol during their lifetime receive the same care as those that were frugal - very unfair. At the very least it should be a tiered system where those that are paying higher have a little more luxury.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178549#Comment_121178549

That’s it in a nut shell. Same as if you were prudent in good times and saved a little you made be excluded or take a reduced SW payment in hard times.

Apparently it’s immoral to use legal tax planning to shelter assets though.

What really is immoral is the amount of tax I (and we all) pay across income, pri, vat, excise, lpt etc.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178549#Comment_121178549

So people with life long disabilities who were never able to work, or parents who couldn’t go to work because they were caring for a disabled child or/and an aged relative simply don’t deserve the same luxury in a nursing home as somebody who did go out to work?

Do you know how disgusting that sounds?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178619#Comment_121178619

I think you know I'm not referring to people with disabilities. I'm talking about able bodied people who chose to live on social welfare for most of their life and those that chose to spend their money on cars, holidays and luxuries rather than having assets.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178619#Comment_121178619

They said and inferred nothing of the sort. Again I will point out you trying to use emotion for some reason ( edit confused you with another poster there actually). You know what they meant and instead you are picking a very different scenerio to what they were inferring.

A tiered system is not something I would agree with if state funded personally. Similar to triage in A&E.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178673#Comment_121178673

But you didn’t make any distinction I’m afraid. In my experience the vast majority of people who live all their lives on Jobseekers payments live a lifestyle which results in their early demise, and rarely make it as far as a nursing home.

There are many reasons people never get off jobseekers and very few of them have anything to do with bone idleness.

The Fair Deal is designed that everyone gets treated the same in their old age.

I think that instead of resenting those you deem unworthy to breath the same air as yourself in your end of days years, you should look around your family and identify anyone who could benefit from your largesse right now instead of waiting until your dead. Sure, you need to make sure you have enough to be comfortable and warm, but just enough. Not too much,

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178680#Comment_121178680

Now now don’t get upset. It’s not “emotional” to point out that the vast amount of people on non con pensions are on one because they COULDNT work as opposed to they WOULDNT work.

The “wouldn’t” work people rarely live that long and if they do their lifestyle choices down through the years generally catch up with them sooner rather then later and they don’t get to make it to the nursing home.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178936#Comment_121178936

I actually confused you with a different poster. Have edited my post!

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121174912#Comment_121174912

Land excluded after 3 years

tjhook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178277#Comment_121178277

Maybe. I think it's immoral that if I receive a payrise or a bonus, the state takes most of it. The state sets the rules, and I stay within those rules. I win some and I lose some.

the14thwarrior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175098#Comment_121175098

it would be important to check it out.

i personally know of someone that this happened to, the right to reside lasts until death. and they asked for a copy of the sale of the house.

five years is the income assessment.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178912#Comment_121178912

You obviously fall into a certain 'lower' category yourself if you think fair deal is fair.

Remember the wealthy don't need to avail of fair deal scheme at all. Those that get screwed by fair deal are the people who worked hard and saved and scrimped throughout their lives to own a house and have a bit of savings. I've seen elderly being left very distressed about the realities of fair deal - distressed that their small assets will disappear. I've seen people who genuinely need residential care refuse to enter care because of this scheme. Genuinely fair deal scheme shafts those that are far from rich.