Environmental crisis- is personal effort futile?

Sunny Disposition

It seems very hard to believe that my action I take will make any difference at all, that it’s all on Governments to regulate and hopefully make a difference.

Also how bad are private cars really. If electricity used to power them is carbon neutral is there any real impact? It seems to me sometimes like we have lost the run of ourselves and have stopped building infrastructure we need for fairly spurious reasons.

SuperBowserWorld

The entire manufacturing and maintenance cost carbon wise and environment wise for a car is huge. Think of all the raw material extraction, transport, manufacturing, sales, marketing, maintenance, road building, road maintenance, tax, insurance, ...

But that applies to a lot of things we consume. Our whole culture and economy is based on over consumption and "infinite" growth.

The government can't handle essential back operations for little children. They are not going to solve the destruction of the planet by forcing you into a bus. People have to want to save the environment for the next generations. Actually want to do that first.

Capt'n Midnight

Carbon Footprint was a "look over there" campaign, IIRC by BP. Feel guilty rather than challenging corporations and their 1% shareholders.

https://xkcd.com/2832

Title text: If they're going to make people ride bikes and scooters in traffic, then it should at LEAST be legal to do the Snow Crash thing where you use a hook-shot-style harpoon to catch free rides from cars.

uch

I used to over consume a lot but I got too fat

TinyMuffin

Typing on the internet damages the environment. The amount of power data centres consume. It’s all a waste of time.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167287#Comment_121167287

Turn off you're device for god's sake man! Memo to self, turn off own device for god's sake.

Padre_Pio

Governments have to encourage growth and consumption so wages get higher and people stay happy, while at the same time reducing consumption and curtailing growth to meet climate targets.

It's an impossible challenge, so that's why we have contradictory message of buying more energy efficient stuff = better for the environment.

Meanwhile people honestly don't give two figs and are happy to blame China/UK/USA or just pretend like it's all a conspiracy.

j2

Ireland as a whole could barely make a detectible impact if we went back to the stone age, the idea that an individual has the ability to make any impact whatsoever is basically a supernatural belief system.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167955#Comment_121167955

the idea that an individual has the ability to make any impact whatsoever is basically a supernatural belief system

This is it in a nutshell

The green agenda is this whole idea that humans can in some way alter something that has been happening for millions of year on earth, the heating and cooling, the changing of climates.

Nothing on earth is static and has never been, but people think that it has to be static and the way things are now has to be preserved because those that come after us will not be able to live in the world as it is then.

It's complete arrogant bollix.

We cannot change the way the earth works and the people and living things that come after us, be it a much bigger or smaller population will deal with the earth they live in and adapt to the earth they live in, just like it's been for millions of years.

Sunny Disposition

I do 100% believe in global warming, but I don't believe I can make any difference at all, that it's 100% up to Governments.

And I don't get the obsession with vehicles if they're all going to be electric quite soon.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168148#Comment_121168148

so you think the scientists who believe the planet is warming due to human activity are all wrong?

dxhound2005

I have an arrangement with a neighbour. He protests outside my house because I am using electricity and I have a car. I protest outside his house because he uses gas and he has two cars. We both feel happy because we are addressing the problem at grassroots level.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167955#Comment_121167955

That's not true, the idea is that everyone makes positive changes. Besides, Ireland is part of the EU, so we will move in lockstep with EU legislation.

The EU is the third biggest polluter (7% of total emissions) after US (14%) and China (27%) At the end of the day everyone has to do their part.

But China is an anomaly, it's got x3.5 the population of the EU, and manufactures most of the world's products. So most of the world has simply offloaded their carbon emissions to China, then cries that we shouldn't bother curtailing emissions until China does.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168730#Comment_121168730

And where did I say that ?

I believe that the planet is warming due to human activity and that the humans that come after us will adapt to that warmer planet.

Just like for hundreds of thousands of years humans and other living things have adapted to a warming or cooling planet.

Climates are not static, they never have been, they never will be, so this generation should stop all this arrogant BS and let people get on with it.

I've no problem with a cleaner planet, with recycling, with the green spaces, but don't give me bollix like the Irish beef or any others country's beef industry has to be decimated because of what the next generation may or may not have to do.

The next generation will figure it out for themselves, they will be as smart if not smarter than us.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168843#Comment_121168843

well you said

The green agenda is this whole idea that humans can in some way alter something that has been happening for millions of year on earth, the heating and cooling, the changing of climates.

so maybe I misunderstood but that to me says that you think humans can't alter the climate

brokenbad

Define Irony.....

Green Party TD Pippa Hackett pontificating about "Climate Change" while driving around in a diesel guzzling Range Rover.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168866#Comment_121168866

Ok, I should have been clearer, when I said "alter" I should have said "reverse"

The earth is constantly changing, we should not assume that we can halt, slow down or reverse that change.

Let that change happen and let humanity adjust.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168896#Comment_121168896

So? She lives on a farm, maybe she needs it? Should we expect all Green party TDs to cycle everywhere and wear hemp clothing?

It's as ridiculous as people calling Greta Thunberg a hypocrite because she took a journey on an airplane.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168915#Comment_121168915

i don't think scientists are basing things on assumptions, there's a lot of research gone into proving that greenhouse gases are causing the planet to heat up rather quickly, and that if we reduced the amount of GHG we're emitting the heating would slow down so as to not be quite as catastrophic as it probably will be.

it will be pretty hard to adjust to not being able to grow food and all kinds of natural disasters.

brokenbad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168921#Comment_121168921

The key word on my post is "pontificating" - if she did a bit less of that, then she would be less of a hypocrite.....

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168952#Comment_121168952

Pontificating is pretty much the job description of any TD, and pontificating about climate change is the Green Party raison d'etre.

Would you be more inclined to listen to her if she turned up to events on a bicycle?

Sunny Disposition

The Green Party have done too much pontificating for sure, and a huge swathe of Ireland has dismissed them as pompous, superior and totally out of touch.

It's a pity really, obviously we need sound environmental policies. But you need relatable people to advocate for them. The Greens don't have that type of talent.

dxhound2005

It doesn't matter what the policies are, if you won't follow them because you think that is futile.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168949#Comment_121168949

I don't doubt the research, I don't doubt the science.

What I do doubt is that the outcome of climate change will be catastrophic.

It will change a hell of a lot with regards to the lives people live, the food they eat and when they eat it, the places they live etc.

But generations will adapt, and we are as technologically advanced as we every have been and will only get more advanced, we are in a better spot to adapt to climate change as anyone has been in history.

Climate change is inevitable, it has always been, so let it happen and adjust instead for trying to stop and reverse it.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169197#Comment_121169197

Do you agree that humans are causing the climate to change at a rate faster than seen before?

Can you foresee that there are massive challenges to world populations that could destabilise governments and change life as we know it?

Are you fine with all this?

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169197#Comment_121169197

well all signs are pointing towards it being pretty bloody catastrophic, hold on to your hat!

i mean we import most of the food we eat in ireland, and our farmed animals are heavily reliant on imported feed, what happens when problems like the floods in greece and droughts in iberia keep getting worse worldwide and we become more and more food insecure? we're not even mitigating for these things in ireland, it's crazy

food and other resource shortages caused by extreme weather is going to turn humanity into one hell of a mess

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169295#Comment_121169295

Do you agree that humans are causing the climate to change at a rate faster than seen before?

No I don't agree

Because 15,000 to 19,000 years ago a large ice sheet over Eurasia retreated at 2,000 feet per day, 20 times faster than the current ice sheet retreat rate.

Link here

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2023/04/06/norway-study-ice-age-data-reveals-fast-ice-melt/2801680752373/

How did that happen without all the cars and factories and human consumption we have now ?

Your question about "massive challenges to world populations that could destabilise governments and change life as we know it" is interesting.

You see the green agenda are hung up about "life as we know it"

But it's not about "life as we know it", it's about "life as future generations know it", and we should not be so arrogant to think that "life as we know it" should be the "life as future generations know it".

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169345#Comment_121169345

I don't know about the import statement you just threw out there but we are seen as the second most food secure country on the planet

Link

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/ireland-ranks-second-in-global-food-security-index-2022/

As for " happens when problems like the floods in Greece and droughts in Iberia keep getting worse worldwide", I don't know, maybe we will be aware of all this and make changes to adapt to it ?

Find more efficient ways to produce, use technology, you know adapt.

Or would culling the beef herd be the best way to ensure food security ?

Strumms

In my place currently…

The only electrical items plugged in are certain electronics that the manufacturers deem are essential to have power…. Such as my TV satellite boxes …. Fridge freezer, etc…. 🤪

Im not a regular public transport user as my main destinations… shops, gym, two restaurants / pubs are not conveniently served by public transport…. They either involve significant walk to a bus stop or having alighted, a significant walk from a bus stop… vehicle is a modern hybrid.

heating is amongst the most green sources of energy available. Windows are triple glazed, place has great modern insulation….

all very well the government lecturing ordinary citizens…. When they are doing SFA about businesses and indeed…

offering hundreds of thousands of people into the country while kicking the Dublin metro ( which will seriously reduce car journeys and pollution ) years down the road to 2035 “ at the earliest “ shows you what the priorities are, their priority is not the environment, currently or in the future….

so I’m not going to sit listening to lectures from people, be they in government or just anymore irregular thinking citizens.

Either they put up, or shut up…. 🤌🏻 my personal effort is reasonable and appropriate ….

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169361#Comment_121169361

So your response is that you don't care because you'll be dead by then.

Fair enough.

brokenbad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168971#Comment_121168971

Yes i would - but only if she wore a Hemp coat also 😎

BrianD3

Many personal efforts are futile. On an individual level, paying your taxes is futile as is voting. For climate change, even assuming that human activity is definitely the cause of climate change, it is even more futile as it is a global issue. 5, 10, 20, 50 million people changing their behaviour will do fcuk all.

People in developed economies love a "cause" it makes them feel important and like they are "doing their bit". I don't know whether this is delusion, arrogance or hubris, do they not realise that they will be dead soon, like all of the rest of us.

Having said that some effort are probably not futile e.g if a person ceases burning smoky fossil fuels in a open grate "to help with climate change" it won't make any difference but it might reduce the amount of particulates the person inhales, reducing their chance of developing COPD, living with discomfort and dying prematurely.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169487#Comment_121169487

Well yea, and that I trust future generations to be smart enough to be able to deal with the problems they face.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169564#Comment_121169564

Even supposing the problems are caused by inaction today.

So it's ok to f*ck up the world now, and not worry about it, because future generations will hopefully deal with it.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169495#Comment_121169495

Delusion, arrogance or hubris OR selflessness, ethically conscious or responsible.

I don't get the notion that one person can't make a difference, so everyone shouldn't bother.

One person can't make a difference if no one else tries, but if everyone tries then we're on a winner. Maybe it's just that most people can't see past their own nose and are inherently selfish.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169659#Comment_121169659

What I don't like is that "try to make a difference" is being forced on us.

Take the outrageous new petrol and diesel car ban that is due in in just over 6 years.

Over 100 years of technology is going to be thrown in the bin and replaced with a technology that is still years away from being mature enough to be a suitable replacement.

And that's before you even delve into the inconvenient truth of sourcing and disposal of the raw materials for the new technology.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169722#Comment_121169722

I fully agree with you on that. The execution of many of these climate change goals is detached from reality.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168921#Comment_121168921

Well Ryan was in China, Kenya and the US recently. None of those flights would have been in coach. He essentially has no credibility to dictate to anyone. its do as I say, not as i do.

Did he ever suggest to have this meeting virtually instead of in person? Did he ****, couldn't miss out wining and dining at the tax payers expense.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058315353/environmental-crisis-is-personal-effort-futile

The problem is, yes, it is all futile, as long as so many coal power plants are in operation or even in planning or construction stage. Apparently there are 1300 or so in planning and construction phase.

The first order of business should be for humanity to get away from coal at all cost, and better today than tomorrow.

Governments are only doing what they were elected for. As long as politicians can win elections on carbon taxes and shaming aviation this kind of discourse will continue. ( Aviantion only contributes to 2 to 3 % to the global emissions )

As long as so much coal still gets burnt in power plants it doesn't matter if you're driving an electric car, have solar panels on your roof or stop flying.

Danzy

The western world can only stop climate change by technology.

As is, the west's carbon is falling rapidly, and from low levels. If the West disappeared tomorrow it would only be a short dip in carbon output.

Most human Carbon by 2100, ever made, is going to be from South East Asia. The scale and exponential growth isn't appreciated by people.

Many People genuinely are so West centric that they can only imagine it in terms of these countries producing to export to the West, as if it was still 30 years ago.

It's domestic consumption there that is driving it and it is dwarfing the west's industrial revolution of the last 250 years.

Individual effort must be done but it is tech that will win it. Not just to mitigate our own small part but to undue the incredible carbon volume of South East Asia.

Will that be some form of seeding the sea to naturally capture carbon, sequestration from the air, who knows.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168806#Comment_121168806

About 92% of China's economy is domestic.

30 years ago, certainly it was about exports.

China's carbon output is on course to double every 8 years at current rate of increase, that would have them beating the entirety of US carbon since it's founding every decade.

Nevermind looking at India and other neighbours, the carbon output of the West over the last few centuries is on track to be dwarfed by South East Asia.

Whatever way it works out the West is not going to have any impact, technology is the only way it stops the carbon Tsunami out of Asia.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168730#Comment_121168730

You would have to crash the earths economy to make any difference.

Consumption is what’s killing the planet and that’s not stopping any time soon.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188208#Comment_121188208

I don't know where you got either of those statistics, but neither looks correct at all.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188580#Comment_121188580

The Chinese carbon output is growing 10% a year, rule of 72 to find out doubling time. That's reported in loads of sites.

The 92% domestic needs clarification, about 80% is domestic, the 92% Includes trade with neighborhood 5 states but excludes the West.

Again readily available if people look for it from countless sources

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121188627#Comment_121188627

Ah yes, I understand. My thoughts would be that China +neighbouring 5 states is probably near half the world's population, hence my comment about manufacturing products for the world.

I see the 10% figure on CO2 rise, but it's not projected to grow 10% YOY over the next decades, most sources have it near peaking this decade.

I completely agree with the rest of your comments, there's a huge population imbalance between the Eastern and Western hemispheres, and Eastern countries getting richer and people demanding the same standard of living as we have in the West (as they should. Also, studies show that richer people have smaller families and so world population finds a balance)

look on Google maps and you’ll see over two third’s of the planet is turning to desert. And nobody is talking about it.

it’s human management that’s causing it

nearly every single problem we have today is a result of Bio diversity loss

Im talking about War, Mega Fires & Floods, Famine, species extinction, immigration, etc

these are all only symptoms of our management (government policy)

Op the only thing that can save us and future generation’s is Everyone do there part because no change will come from any institution’s unless public opinion changes.

Strumms

Governments and political parties and NGOs advocating and chastening citizens here about the climate, pollution, this and that.

yet the same people advocating for and facilitating the massive population growth here, exponentially population growth being advocated for and actively enabled…

the more people living here, the greater levels of pollution. Busier airports, more manufacturing, more agri production, more traffic, more energy consumption, more fossil fuel usage……Greater pollution.

Like advocating for healthier eating yet banning salads.

so with all that going on, whatever I do to supposedly contribute to the degradation of our environment, it doesn’t register, not in the slightest. Any politician, NGO muppet etc lecturing me would just be told to walk away, quickly…

blackbox

Climate change is only one aspect of environmental damage, but it gets all the headlines.

I'm more concerned about pollution, especially of waterways but also the amount of rubbish in general. I think we can adapt to different climates but who wants to live in a cesspit?

Individuals can certainly make a difference by not throwing their rubbish around, whether it's a fag packet, a drinks can or an old mattress.

Individual landowners can have an impact on waterways pollution.

BrianD3

Somebody should ask the EPA to estimate what quantity of greenhouse gases and pollutants are emitted each year from people (mostly public servants) attending EPA organised conferences, seminars and workshops on environmental issues. During the pandemic, these events went online or didn't happen at all but now "in person" attendance is back with a vengeance. This generally involves attendees driving around the country in single occupancy diesel cars to hotels, getting their dinner handed to them and claiming generous travel. Here's one such event coming up soon. "All presentations will be recorded and will be shared via our EPA YouTube channel shortly after the event" - yeah, and that will do very little to discourage in person attendance.

https://www.epa.ie/who-we-are/conference--events/national-air-event-2023--clean-air---vital-for-our-health.php