Buying petrol car

randomguy

Our 2013 petrol car is getting old. Family - 2 adults, 2 smallish kids. We cycle and also use an electric cargo bike for all daily commutes, so we rarely drive. When we do drive, it is for long journeys (holidays, weekends away). Approx 6,000 kms per year (thought it was more, but checked log books and that is all it is). Really do not like diesel. Really do not like SUVs/MPVs etc. But want comfort for a family of 4 on long journeys, and the 2013 has seen better days.

Looked at getting a 3 or 4 year old second-hand car, but value is atrocious at the moment.

Having gone around in circles, am seriously considering buying a new petrol (skoda octavia, 1.5L TSI petrol - approx €37,000).

I just cannot justify the price of an EV. I also think that the environmental cost of an EV is in the battery, while the environmental cost of a petrol engine is in the use. Our use is very low. If I was using the car every day, I would buy an EV. But having a battery, just to sit in the driveway for most of the month, seems wrong. Same applies to Phevs. Based on occasional long journeys and only 6,000 kms per year, petrol makes more sense, environmentally and money-wise.

But I am here for a reason. I am open to persuasion. I have a front driveway and an outside plug. I want to be ahead of the curve. Please tell me why I am wrong, and what EV I should consider!

Akrasia

MG5

Same price, it's an estate so plenty of room for your 2 kids plus luggage for your trips away

350 to 400km range should be plenty to get you from one side of the country to the other and can rapid charge if you stop somewhere for lunch along the way

Battery life is going to be longer than the life expectancy of the car, and it comes with Vehicle to Load as standard so if you go camping or even if there's a power cut, you can run up to 2200 watts of appliances off the car battery for a few hours

At the end of the vehicle's life span, the batteries can be sold and repurposed to provide Domestic battery backup for solar so it can continue to support renewable energy for many years, or the raw materials in the Battery can be reclaimed via battery recycling facilities that are beginning to spring up around Europe

https://www.hydro.com/en-NL/media/news/2022/europes-largest-electric-vehicle-battery-recycling-plant-begins-operations/

elperello

How many Kms on your present car and what is it.?

My angle is that €37k is a lot to invest to do 6000kms a year.

Maybe hold on to your own or buy second hand at around €20k.

the_amazing_raisin

So, I'm going to remove a few notions from your head to start

The environmental cost of an EV is mostly in production, however an ICE car incurs environmental cost in production, use and also the extraction of fuel for that car

Every study has shown that EVs are better for the environment even when the production emissions are taken into account.

Then it's worth considering that almost all of the components of a battery can and are recycled. Someone has yet to invent a realistic way to turn exhaust gas into fuel (no, carbon capture is not realistic)

Okay, so with that out of the way, on to cars that you can buy

Based on your usage, the most financially responsible decision is to keep your 2013 petrol car until it's so broken it's only worth scrap value

But that would be boring 😁

So I think the better way to view things is "I want a new car but don't want to get fleeced for something I don't use a lot"

In terms of experience, I'd recommend just taking a few EVs for a test drive. In general they're much more pleasant to drive, have good acceleration, no gear shifts and are quieter

The big unknown for people considering the jump is public charging, particularly when you're on longer journeys

My personal experience is that there's definitely some areas that are lacking in chargers but the situation has improved dramatically over the past few years and is continuing to improve

The best way to avoid frustration is a bit of forward planning. Checkout websites like A Better Route Planner or Plugshare to see what the availability of chargers is like on some routes you normally take

https://www.plugshare.com/

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

I use ABRP mostly and put a filter on locations with fewer than 4 chargers, that typically avoids the worst of charging queues or broken chargers

I would also tend to use a destination slow charger when it's available, let's the car charge up when I'm sitting down relaxing

To give you an idea, here's some longer trips I've made with my ID4, I live in North Dublin

Waterford, summer, charged for an hour on a destination charger while I was out for a walk

Belfast, winter, charged for 15 mins at a fast charger in Kinnegar, no queues

Gorey, winter, no charging needed

Dundalk, winter, no charging needed

Newry, last July (whatever season you'd call that), no charging

Cornwall UK, summer, 2 fast charging stops each way, about 20 mins average. Also an overnight charge at the hotel. That was around 3 hours between stops and I needed a break anyway

randomguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138511#Comment_121138511

Was originally looking at second hand, but the market seems a bit crazy. Driving a petrol Skoda Octavia with 95k kms on it, bought second hand 5 years ago. Does the job, big boot is great, passed NCT without a service, but I just feel it is time to get something slightly bigger/more modern/more comfortable.

the_amazing_raisin

Actually, one other thing to consider, and possibly an alternative short term plan

If you get solar panels on your house, it's definitely a better way to make your money back than a new car

And since your car is likely sitting idle a lot, it can charge purely off of solar power.

I've been doing this a lot and averaged about 600km of free driving every month since May. Even drive to Gorey and back entirely on sunshine

You could postpone the car change temporarily, and get the panels and setup a car charger now so you're ready to go if you take the plunge on going electric

eltoastero

I don't understand the statement "But having a battery, just to sit in the driveway for most of the month, seems wrong." It's not like the battery is rotting away while not in use, unlike the petrol in a tank which technically is deteriorating the tank (a small bit, it's irrelevant). In fact, if you ever get some solar panel there's a huge advantage of having a car at home to soak up every excess bit of power generation - a thought for the future. The Environmental considerations (which has been talked to death on other posts) will only get better for EVs are the grid becomes greener, the extraction/refinement/transport/burning of fossil fuels will not become greener over time.

I'll start from the €37k you mentioned above, there's a lot of family friendly (non SUV) EVs out there that will do you well, often for less than the price of that new Octavia.

Used Tesla Model 3s in the €30k to €35k bracket are becoming very common - technically the easiest transition to public charging with the excellent Supercharger network to supplement the rest of the public charging network (for your holidays, weekends away etc). Plenty of space and practicality for 2A+2K family (I've rented a M3 for a family holiday abroad for 2Adults+3Kids and we were fine). The boot is bigger than you'd think.

Used Ioniq 5 (and the KIA EV6, but less common) are in the price bracket you're considering - these are also exceptionally practical for a family with good sized boots and have the added benefit of having fantastic charging curves (i.e. fast charging on your long journeys). Some might consider these as SUVs, each to their own.

VW ID3 have been about long enough too that there are a few for sale around €25k, and the odd one for sale with the bigger battery if you've any concern about those longer journeys. The ID3 doesn't have the bootspace (380L) of the other mentioned but I had a Golf GTE when I'd only 2 kids and it did us fine, just in case you wanted a smaller family hatchback. The Cupra Born should also be considered here. If I only had 2 kids I'd probably have a Cupra Born (instead of a KIA EV6).

If you want a new car, the MG4 is probably within your budget and seems to be very regarded by owners on here.

Having the ability to charge at home puts you in a great position to consider and EV, the value in the used EV market hasn't been better.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138561#Comment_121138561

There should be another 10 years in that car at the current rate of usage.

I know that's not what you want to hear.

If you want to sell it someone will take your hand off🙂

Have you looked at second hand Superbs?

Definitely tick the box for bigger and more comfortable.

randomguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138595#Comment_121138595

All food for thought.

What I meant about the battery: The environmental cost of producing an EV battery, between carbon footprint and mining of raw materials etc, is a lot worse than producing a petrol engine - those costs are front-loaded, and are borne in large part in other parts of the world. Over its lifetime, this is worthwhile, since the environmental cost of running the car is so much lower, if the electricity running it is mainly renewable. Within maybe 40k or 50k kms, this evens out (I am guessing the kms, it depends on the car), and then every electric km rather than petrol km is a net (but not gross) carbon gain. But if I hardly ever run the car, I never reach that tipping point.

Am I saying that I am a victim of my own very low carbon footprint, because my second car is an electric cargo bike??? Maybe!

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138735#Comment_121138735

For a low mileage driver you should buy an used EV that has already canceled the carbon front loading. And by the time the car is scrapped the metals and minerals from the battery will be recycled into new batteries unlike the CO2 from your exhaust emissions.

zg3409

What car do you have today and is it too small or too big?

What is your daily commute round trip in km?

What is your typical longer weekend trip say to visit friends or grandparents etc?

What is your budget? What trade in would you get? Can you get loans etc?

Without this info it's hard to give advice. There are some great value used EVs out there if you look hard and they are far nicer to drive when you are within range of home charger.

True total cost of ownership are a guess but I suspect a brand new petrol car will drop in value by 20% in the first year.

EVs are typically much cheaper to run, especially if you buy a cheap used one.

ted1

6,000km a year!!! just keep the 2013, or trade it in for a 2020. getting a new car that gets so little use is mad

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138779#Comment_121138779

Second this, there's a good selection of 2nd hand EVs available which should cover the range, are within budget and have used up a reasonable amount of their carbon footprint already

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138735#Comment_121138735

Let me offer a different viewpoint:

An EV will eventually reach the point where it is carbon neutral. Maybe it doesn't happen while you own it but it will happen before the car is scrapped, and even once it is scrapped the batteries will be reused or recycled

A petrol car will never be carbon neutral, it can't because it will always be adding for carbon to the atmosphere

User1998

Spending €37k to do 6k km a year is nuts. Surely just keep the current car?

the_amazing_raisin

https://microlino-car.com/en/choose-edition

For 6,000km a year this is probably the perfect new car 😁

And yes, before someone yells at me, I'm aware that's not what the OP was asking for

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058314785/buying-petrol-car

from the sounds of it you'd be better off using something like gocar or renting a car when you need it to be honest

Glen Immal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138571#Comment_121138571

Best Advice - was going to say something along these lines but I'm too lazy. also your 95k Skoda is not one quarter through its potential life if its been looked after. be snapped up if you opt to sell

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140210#Comment_121140210

Haha, you might not have approved of my follow up thought which was to get a car with V2L which you'd be able to get some value out of it while it's sitting idle in the driveway

Could charge the car from solar and also charge the E-bike battery from the car 😁

If V2G ever becomes a thing it'll be pretty transformative, suddenly that lump of rare earth metals in the driveway can start making money for you

Charge the car from solar, or when it's cheap and the sell what you don't need back to the grid in the evening, get paid for your contribution

Better for the environment too if you sell to the grid at peak times as that's when the grid is at it's most carbon intensive. You might mean a little bit less gas used to generate electricity

I know one boards user who did pretty much that with his house batteries and solar

However, going back to the OPs point, it's still somewhat difficult to justify the expense of a new car when it's sitting idle so much

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121139945#Comment_121139945

Slight modification, buy a cheap EV which can handle the commute (when it's raining) and some of the longer journeys and rent a car when you're going beyond the range of your battery

The main drawbacks are that you can't spontaneously decide to do to Cork one weekend, you generally need to book ahead.

Also you don't have much say over what car you get to rent. You might have booked a BMW 3 series, but if all they have on the day is a bottom spec Ford then that's what you're getting

Furze99

Perfectly sensible and logical approach: Skoda Octavia, 1.5L TSI petrol

All these things have to be held in balance.

kanuseeme

If you have 37k to spend,

1. solar panels
2. cheap EV
3. any money left over, get a convertible, you don't drive a lot, might as well do it in style and enjoy it.

randomguy

Thanks everyone for comments. Lots of food for thought.

Our journeys are a round trip of 6 kms once a week, a round trip of 60kms once every two weeks or so, and then every few months a weekend trip to see family or holidays etc of 400 to 600 kms round trip. maybe about 6 or 8 times a year, plus the occasional trip to Ikea/playcentre/dump/garden centre etc.

I do love our current EV - an electric cargo bike!!!

The comments here made me cop on about value for money etc, since we spend so little time in the car.

New plan is just to spend €15k plus trade in to get a 4-year old skoda petrol with nicer trim, and then in a few years go for a second hand electric (and solar panels). We had been saving for an extension, hence having the cash right now - will leave the balance in the extension fund and use them for solar panels when we do it.

Thanks everyone for the comments - while you didn't persuade me to spend €38k on an EV, you did persuade me that spending that on any car right now was madness.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142442#Comment_121142442

So in terms of journeys, any EV will handle the first two

The 400-600km trip will require a bit more planning. It's quite doable in something like an Ioniq38, Kona, ID.3 but will require charging along the way

Since you mentioned visiting family, one handy trick is to install a cheap charger there and get the grant. Makes life a lot easier if there's a guaranteed destination charger

Having said that, the 2kW granny charger can actually go a long way, typically adding 100-150km range over 12 hours

I would argue the solar panels are probably the better option for spending money on in the near term. Unless your current car is totally banjaxed then it's more of a saving to get the panels now

For €15k you can get a pretty good setup and it'll start paying for itself from day 1

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142442#Comment_121142442

Happy motoring and cycling 🙂

kaahooters

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142442#Comment_121142442

tbh, if you have plans to get an extention and pv panels, changing your 10 year old car now is a bit of a waste, take the money fromt eh car change and get the extention done quicker. 15k will be a good chunk of the extention.

Fabio

Get the Skoda serviced, a full proper check over, get a really good valet done on it and a set of tyres and it'll feel new.

Then use the money you'd have spent to do other stuff.

unkel

€37k for a base Skoda Octavia? Nuts. I bought one for my mother in law back in 2003, mid spec, paid €17k brand new with metallic paint. I know that was 20 years ago but most cars haven't more than doubled in price since then.

Another comparison. I paid €25k for my full EV Hyundai Ioniq in early 2017. This was the same price for an entry level Skoda Octavia automatic diesel.

As others said, keep your own car on the road or if it is beyond fixing, buy yourself a €2-3k reliable banger like a Honda Accord petrol

fits

I’d say keep current car, rent one for the longer trips and get the house and solar done sooner.

happy ID.3 long range owner here that brought four of us to France. Big drawback is that it can’t carry bikes or pull our camping trailer but otherwise it’s a good one.