Temple street hospital using unauthorised devices

Floppybits

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I did a search but couldn't find anything.

Absolutely scandalous what has gone at Temple Street hospital in treating kids with spinal complications. How could anyone in their right mind think it was ok to use unauthorised devices on the kids during surgery. I heard Roisin Shortall say on Newstalk that some of the items used were bought in a hardware shop, FFS.

https://www.thejournal.ie/review-spinal-surgery-temple-street-6171560-Sep2023/

magicbastarder

the irish times article on it states that the investigations centre around one consultant in particular. but - and it's a big but - "One child has died and others have suffered significant post-operative complications since issue came under investigation"

emphasis mine.

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/09/18/serious-spinal-surgical-incidents-at-temple-street-hospital-prompts-external-review/

Astartes

The trust in public health has been absolutely shattered all for the sake of saving a few bob. Jail would be too good for the surgeon in question but we will never even find out their name. Sweep sweep sweep it up. There's no evidence if there's no evidence nudge nudge wink wink.

What a kip

tayto lover

Just heard about this. The surgeon bought springs etc in a DIY shop and put them into sick children ??? I wonder how long he has worked there and if he was checked out beforehand?

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127206#Comment_121127206

They were hardly working alone in the theatre....did no scrub nurses, anaesthesiologist etc not cop this and report it?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127267#Comment_121127267

Someone did report it not sure if it was a whistle-blower or the parents affected by this. The Ditch published the story on friday. Not sure if the hospital and HSE where trying to keep it hush hush or waiting for the report. Either way it is awful what was done. I'm sure we will hear more about the heirarchal structure in hospitals similar to what went in the NHS with the nurse killing babies.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127206#Comment_121127206

There has to be some other motivation. The surgeon would not have been paying for metal implants out of his own pocket.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127352#Comment_121127352

Exactly surely everything used in the operation would have to be accounted for from the hospital stores.

nachouser

I was just gonna create this thread. Whether or not you believe The Ditch, there is more detailed info there on what is alleged to have been going on.

The "medical implants" are alleged to have cost a fiver a go.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127363#Comment_121127363

From The Ditch report on 15th September

"Central to these questions was the allegation that springs not meant for use in surgery were bought by at least one member of staff at Temple Street and subsequently used in an unlicensed implant, which was then implanted in at least three young patients during surgery. Other members of staff at Temple Street have said that this is indeed the case.

European Springs & Pressings Ltd, headquartered in Kent, have confirmed to The Ditch that it fulfilled an order to Temple Street in January 2020 for a consignment of 10 compression springs (at a cost of £4.58 per spring) that were not intended for use as implants in surgery. The company’s business development manager in Ireland says they had no idea of the end use for the springs and that, if they had known they were to be used in surgery, the company would have advised against it. The springs are made from low-grade steel, rather than the titanium alloy required to prevent corrosion. The company also doesn’t have the relevant certification to sell springs for use in medical implants. There is no suggestion European Springs & Pressings committed any wrongdoing in fulfilling the order for Temple Street."

SuperBowserWorld

Tried to read some of this and it seems unbelievable.

And this sentence is still shocking despite all the alleged stuff ...

"Despite a commitment first given by then health minister Simon Harris in 2017 that no child would be on the waiting list for more than four months, there are still more than 120 children waiting more than a year for scoliosis surgery, according to the Ombudsman for Children."

This is in a country that can pay the 6O GRAND BIK tax on someone's ridiculous car that they also get free in Bord Na Mona. Turf.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127184#Comment_121127184

100% agree with all that…. Such a dump of a country now…. Any civilised and responsibly run country you’d be going down for 5 years for that.

SuperBowserWorld

I think the government has been papering over the cracks this past 10 years. The had the opportunity to do some real strategic thinking and planning after the last property crash. But they have not done anything apart from pump up property prices.

hotmail.com

Why were items from Woodies inserted into their backs?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127503#Comment_121127503

The FG government after the Trioka had gone tried to recreate a celtic tiger boom but it has backfired on them. Like you said there was a real chance for serious change to be made to how the country was run and money used and the p**sed against the wall.

For things to change now it will need a government that can come up with a 10 year plan and get cross party support for it and get it implemented and leave their ego at the door.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127633#Comment_121127633

You would be hoping this whole mess wasn't true. I couldn't believe when Shortall said it during her interview on Newstalk. We will probably have to wait till the oireacthas committee meeting to find out what really happened.

L.Ball

Ah shurr what's to be done, I mean we lose over half our graduate doctors and Nurses straight out of med school to Australia, Canada & the Middle East because we won't pay them a living wage, and then we take on the ones that can't get work anywhere else. how those two factors are related and could lead to constant negligence at every level is a mystery though.

Also don't go blaming the health minister, they can't be "in charge" of every little thing going on around the country.

tayto lover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127267#Comment_121127267

Someone in the staff reported him according to the News report I heard on radio. I really can't get this out of my head. Sick children being treated like that by a so-called professional.

Amirani

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127823#Comment_121127823

How much do you think we're paying graduate doctors? How much do you think the living wage is?

con747

Here's a thought, pay our HSE staff a decent wage from top to bottom on the front line and it might just stop the unknown millions being paid out weekly for incompetence which we see weekly. That will never happen though.

lizzyjane

I thought nothing could surprise me anymore about this cesspit of a country.

This is sickening.

chopperbyrne

You'd really hope this isn't true, but if it is, there needs to be serious ramifications for all involved.

Tom1991

This is another HSE disgrace,

This doctor should be named and shamed and at the earliest charged if I was a parent of one of those kids I’d haunt that prick of a surgeon till his dying breath.

Hellrazer

My daughter had this surgery in October 2020 - thankfully it wasnt in this hospital but I feel so sorry for the children and families involved. The surgery is hard enough to go through after waiting for almost 3 years. The pain my daughter went through before and after the surgery was horrendous and I can only imagine having to get it redone again because the cheap-ass consultant went to B and Q to buy a few bits and pieces - or was it the Lidl middle aisle??

Absolute scumbag - he should be named and shamed and his face plastered all over the media. But no he`ll get struck off and get to keep his huge HSE pension.

Its a disgrace - Donnelly should be fired as well over this as hes the minister for health. The ministers office at the time (Simon Harris) wouldnt even acknowledge me when I emailed him about the waiting list - I got a please **** off email back from his office yet he stated that no child would be waiting on this surgery. If my daughters had been done within a year of diagnosis it would have been "minor" surgery and cost the tax payer a lot less but because she was waiting so long she had almost a full spinal fusion with 48 screws (hopefully not from the local hardware shop) in her back that cost the tax payer in the region of €100k

An absolute **** hole of a country.

Edit for Transparency - The PFO letter was from Simon Harris`office.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128133#Comment_121128133

But it's not just pay, its everything, hours shifts and their treatment. They work horrendous hours and then are treated like crap by management. Remember the government threatened nurses before covid if they went on strike.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128206#Comment_121128206

The problem is and will always be there is no accountability in Ireland, it makes the news and is brushed under the carpet when the next scandal breaks and then it's up to the people affected to try and get justice which is never an easy road to travel when you have government bodies with endless resources to fight you all the way even though they know they are in the wrong and eventually settle with a non disclosure agreement for multiples of what they could have settled for initially.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128249#Comment_121128249

I agree, and it's time the government copped on and sacked most of the overpaid useless management with their for life jobs dragging the people who make the difference down. I know due to contracts and so forth it will never happen but they can do something about it.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127680#Comment_121127680

You hope that this wasn’t true, take from someone who’s child has waited years for this surgery and has being attending for nearly four years now and seeing the incompetence of some staff not booking appointments, scans etc and see your child getting worse by the day in pain trying to get through secondary school and general day to day things that you take for granted that they can’t do, down to putting their socks on. That weasel of a Harris using scoliosis as a publicity stunt to keep himself relevant.

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128206#Comment_121128206

Agree what your saying being down the same road, and the first time went wrong and had to wait 10 months to get corrective done again and the pain and daily agony the children have to go through because of the waiting list that is all down to the weasel Harris all talk and done nothing, we were advised not to go near Harris about the waiting list as we would have got the same reply as you got. If people knew what the children have to go through in a fusion procedure in a 8 to 9 hour operation having their bones drilled and rods and screws inserted it might help put some pressure on the government to sit up and take notice instead of the likes of Shorthall jumping on the band wagon trying to look interested.

standardg60

A friend has been telling me about this for at least the last year and said it was going to be the biggest scandal in the history of the state. A child of someone they knew had been operated on and had been left bent double. They were one of the 'lucky' ones, there have been several left paralysed.

Allegedly the person involved had 'developed' their own unique practices, and had continued with surgery when damage had clearly been done. There are massive cases pending.

dickdasr1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127633#Comment_121127633

A bit too tragic for smartass quips, don't you think?

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127267#Comment_121127267

How would they recognise the difference. They hardly had a sticker from Woodies on them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127357#Comment_121127357

The hospital doesn't store a lot of these impact. They are typically deliver in set per surgery. This is bizarre, as mentioned they were not going to be paying out of their pocket

A friend of mine works for a major medical implant company. Part of his role is to supervise surgery. He brings the implants, tools, hardware. Ensure correct tools are used, etc. They deliver a new set for every surgery as in past a hospitals mixed up a set of 5mm "screwdrivers" and 6mm "screwdrivers" - and both were sued. The control they insist on to protect everyone involved is insane. Springs from woodies? Wtf. I really hope these were an external implant (not that it makes it ok)

PokeHerKing

The HSE have emphasised the doctor is not currently performing surgeries.....

I should hope fcuking not. Something terrifyingly casual about that statement.

Robxxx7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128430#Comment_121128430

Don't think it was a smartass quip, as i heard on the radio some items were purchased from woodies .. i'm sure it said that on yesterdays RTE news report on the radio .. i remember at the time thinking wtf !

almostover

I work as a design engineer in the medical device industry, this story was doing the rounds yesterday at work. It's beyond shocking. The surgeon in question was purchasing springs from an industrial supplies company in the UK and using them as implants. These springs were intended for use in industrial applications and in no way suitable for implantation. Apparently there is a Dutch company doing research work on spring type implants for degenerative spine disease and the surgeon in question decided to follow suit but implanted industrial springs in children. It's disgusting.

There are onerous regulatory hurdles to be cleared to release a medical device to market in the EU, especially an implant. And for very good reason. These springs would have been made of a metal that would have had no biocompatibility assessed and could have caused blood poisoning, sepsis, bone infections etc. Not to mention that there would have been zero testing done on the ability of the springs to bear the loads that the body will put on them. Also, if the springs were too stiff / strong a phenomenon called stress shielding can occur. This is where the loading of the body is borne more by the implant than the bone itself, due to the high strength of the implant. The result is that the bone structure weakens and dies as it no longer has a load bearing function.

The surgeon in question should be tried and jailed for a long time. I feel for the families involved to be subjected to this type of negligence. The damning indictment on our health system is again that genuine whistle-blowers seem to have been given the pariah treatment. Disgusting scenario on all fronts.

anonymouscactus

Very hard to read stories like this and not despair for Ireland's direction. This country is awash with money we're told and yet there are thousands of kids with extra needs waiting on school support. There are thousands of adults with disabilities waiting on residential places, being cared for by elderly parents. Thousands of homeless families. And, this story, the most degrading atrocity of all, some c*nt of a surgeon putting parts from Woodie's into childrens' bodies. The social contract only applies to some - to the class that never lose their pensions and never have to show accountability. The rest of us can f*ck off.

TheValeyard

Wow. Story is absolutely horrific. Those poor kids, and those parents that lost their child. One of the worst things that anyone can experience.

Serious and i wonder if criminal questions need to be asked here.

Deregos.

Let us not lose sight of the fact that Temple Street is a fantastic hospital with generally excellent staff, who really do excellent work in helping cure our very sick children and saving their lives.

I was in that very same scoliosis department just last week with my son, and the doctors and nurses we dealt with could not have been more attentive and professional.

It’s beyond frightening to think something like that could happen in a hospital. It seems there’s utter chaos going on in healthcare here.

How could anyone do something like that?! Those poor kids.

StrawbsM

Who’s in charge of what medical devices and implements come in and out of a surgical theatre? Is there anybody doing it?

With all the managers and admin staff within the HSE, I would have thought that there would be a department connected to theatres that knows what surgery is scheduled, what medical equipment* is required, what medical equipment* has been used and what medical equipment* is left in the theatre at the end.

I’m using medical equipment to cover everything including dressings, swabs, etc.

There are both Irish and EU regulations around medical devices. They should be absolutely adhered to.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128430#Comment_121128430

Why did you think it was smart ass.

It's the main question to ask you idiot.

I've not seen any explanation yet.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128439#Comment_121128439

Currently. Savita Halappanavar's OB/GYN is practicing today.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128668#Comment_121128668

These are some of the questions that need to be answered. People be need to feel confident when going in for an operation no matter how minor it is that proper procedures are in place and religiously adhered too. How did this person manage to unauthorised devices into the operating theatre and then using them. Also how was this person allowed to continue to work while being under investigation?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128581#Comment_121128581

We all know there are great people in the Health Service doing great work but this sort of incident cannot be ignored and does beg the question what else is going on that is not known about?

arctictree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128762#Comment_121128762

Probably because the alternative is to cancel/postpone operations. Rock and a hard place really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128581#Comment_121128581

It's a f*cking sh!thole. The A&E department in there is an absolute disgrace. Still using covid as an excuse to only allow 1 parent in, because there's no space in the kip. Hours waiting with children in pain and misery. You'd see better in a field hospital in sub saharan Africa.

The sooner they finish the new children's hospital the better, whatever it bloody costs.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128777#Comment_121128777

Because of this there have been no operations for a year at the hospital.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128789#Comment_121128789

That's the spinal surgeries. Just to be clear.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128768#Comment_121128768

Really I don't agree with that. There are maybe some good people doing their required work; of course, it's very easy to get overexcited when adequate work is done, when the average is very low. HSE pays out hundreds of millions for damages - what does that imply? Mental health care in Ireland is largely nonexistant and is handled minimally, where the business strategy seems to be pay off the victims.

It really seems that a serious competence review and concomitant layoffs would be the way to go. Then raise salaries. Why keep poor performers on staff?

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128796#Comment_121128796

One of the biggest failures when setting up the HSE was not having redundancies when the health boards were brought under the one roof as what would have happened in most companies in the private sector. There are were too many wasters in the HSE usually in management, get rid of those and then get the people in to the frontlines were most of the staff is needed.