Misrepresentation in a contract

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138717#Comment_121138717

Yes this is the anonymous forum, I thought that was self explanatory.

I don't think you're following the thread.

I've long since said I'm not taking a case.

Nice, though there was one helpful user on here who actually shared the legal knowledge I was looking for.

Everyone else getting in such a tissy and I just can't see why.

Let me clarify again. I've left bad reviews for this guy based on his prices only.

That's the real world. People talk about the value for money business offer and online reviews are part of that. Regardless of whether that business stayed within the enforceable law on how they deal with customers.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138645#Comment_121138645

I appreciate a tradesman has costs. I didn't say he's taking home 500 an hour.

The quotes I got for materials included delivery to my door. It might be ok from a legal perspective to charge delivery in this case, but it still represents terrible value to the consumer.

The helper was teenage. Late teens but on school holidays when I asked. It may well be that he's paying the lad 200 an hour, but again terrible value to me.

As for travel, he lives not a million miles away. Somewhere around the same distance as the plumbers I had come for two days for a fraction of the cost.

The only consumables I'm aware of were some nails. Tools were basic and no scaffolding.

As an aside, I got some more quotes for fitting after this to ensure I'm not wronging him in my reviews. One guy said 1,600 and mentioned scaffolding as a factor in the that price. Another guy said 3,600 and told me scaffolding was very expensive.

Am I still not allowed mention price-gouging?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138645#Comment_121138645

On your last point I haven't mentioned an hourly rate in my reviews. I've given the price as a days work, including the helper. I've erred on the side of caution (I'm very fair really) and it's still an outrageous price.

He did mention too when leaving he was off to do another job.

James 007

I remember 3 years ago I was getting quotations for the install of a new velux window, 1.45 x 0.45m width to a bathroom. I had several quotes but they were all in around €2,500 - €3,000 incl VAT for supply & fit, if I can recall right. I taught it was crazy money. My bathroom extends beyond the back of the house is at first floor level with a lean to roof at approx. 25 - 30 degrees.

To the left is my ground floor dining room with a lean to roof & at the back of the kitchen (bathroom over) is a lean to utility shed. It meant you could not physically place a scaffolding to the side of or behind my lean to roof to the bathroom. I remember one contractor looking up & saying 'we will have to get a scaffolding up here for safety reasons' etc.

I pictured in my head they will come, install the window & complete all the works using the new velux ope as an access route & be onto the next job & there will be no sign of a scaffolding. I could'nt justify the quotes, o what I decided in the end, spend close two weeks looking up velux window installations, installed it myself, whilst it did take me longer, 1.5 days to install😀, window first day with all the flashing & cutting the slates/fitting the following day. It hasn't leaked in the last 3 years, so all good. I tied myself off at a fixed point & used a work harness. I will admit I needed help lifting the window into position, damn heavy.

The point I am trying to make is, these guys will have all the safety etc. bells & whistles in mind, the job will take a whole day etc. in order to justify and bump up their quotation but when it comes to the job itself its all about getting the job done as quickly as possible & onto the next job. Even though the OP in this instance says the job took 5 hours, he probably was told a full day or thereabouts, the guy is off for the other 3 hours to survey 2-3 more houses before he finishes for the day, effectively paid by the OP.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140711#Comment_121140711

Even though the OP in this instance says the job took 5 hours, he probably was told a full day or thereabouts, the guy is off for the other 3 hours to survey 2-3 more houses before he finishes for the day, effectively paid by the OP.

What does it matter what he was doing? The OP was happy with the quote and agreed to commission the builder to install the windows at that price. The OP didn't carry out any due dilligence on the quote until afterwards! Now the OP thinks that the builder was somehow in the wrong. This initially seems to have been partly driven by the builder not undertaking a second project for the OP despite the OP thinking that they would

MegamanBoo

@James 007 be careful what you say here, there's a strange logic at work on this thread.

From what I can gather...

Lying is fine, once it's not a legally actionable part of a written contract.

Leaving honest reviews is wrong.

Reporting wrongdoing to the relevant authorities is wrong.

Price gouging is fine. In fact, here's a tip... a young lad holding a ladder for five hours could be considered eight billable roofing hours.

Fair play to you for doing your own window 👍

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140895#Comment_121140895

Mind boggling.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138964#Comment_121138964

I was referring to take home. I was pointing out that you claimed he charge 500 an hours. But the cost you gave highlight that was true. It was more like 150, that a pretty big difference.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140895#Comment_121140895

You you aren’t giving an honest view. You’ve been caught lying multiple times.

You claim breach of contract, then denied you even made those claims.

If somebody has to do pick up your window. Bring it to you house and is there for 6 hours. That it’s absolutely a full day charge.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141202#Comment_121141202

This is some great material right here.

I've come on asking at what point dishonesty in the common sense becomes breach of contract. Yet now, every time I talk about dishonesty in the common sense, I'm accusing someone of breach of contract. And on top of this I'm lying about it too. That's wonderful stuff.

It's still not clear to me whether your bemoaning that this poor fella is only taking home 150 an hour, I guess with taxes and all, or you have that as the rate he charged me because you've given him so many 'billable hours' now?

Did he make sandwiches the night before? 200 catering fees.

Did he ask his wife where my town is? Consultancy work.

Bought some new work boots at the weekend? He'd have had to travel to the shop wouldn't he?

The sense of entitlement is astounding.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140711#Comment_121140711

As it happens I did ask how long the job would take, I was concerned with all the disruption with a newborn baby in the house.

He told me 'they' should get it done within a day, weather permitting. He said he'd a team of 5 or 6 guys working with him full-time and one of these guys would be on the job with him.

That's what I took as the basis for his rate. I had also given a quick check and seen half a days work mentioned as a ballpark figure for changing out one of these windows.

Donald Trump

Contracts (subject to exceptions) do not have to be in writing. However, without having agreed on a price or even any firm details, your second "contract" is at best an agreement to agree. Which will hold no water. In reality, discussions about the second job might constitute mere puffery in relation to the first one

Let's reverse the issue. The builder comes back with a quote for a million quid and insists he start work the next day as you had binding agreement in place already...........

In theory, a scenario like your could be seen as an inducement to enter the first, but not on the details you have presented

Get proper legal advice as you might not be explaining things clearly and should not depend on anonymous randomers

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121130412#Comment_121130412

Society and the law assumes you are an adult capable of acting in your own best interests. You negotiated this contract, you agreed to it and you paid for it. If I was the builder's solicitor I'd advise him to go after you for all the BS nonsense you are going on with.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141694#Comment_121141694

Thanks for the explanation, I do understand that much. For what it's worth, there were quite firm details about what was required for the second job.

I was hoping that where an inducement is found to have been offered deceptively, the position of the court would be to undo the damage done by that inducement. Instead it seems the position is to force the seller to honor the inducement.

I'm not quite sure I see that as a very 'just' law. I don't see that it offers any great disincentive to deceptive practices. But I can appreciate the logic and certainly won't be proceeding with any legal action.

If you do want to look at it from another perspective. Let's suppose the tables were turned and there was an abundance of builders and very little work (cast your mind back to after the last crash). Let's suppose then I offer a builder a low ball rate for some work on the basis of having loads more to come. This would include written statements that I was only waiting on prices from suppliers, everything was on track, etc. If I then fob him off once my job was done, I wouldn't be surprised if that builder explored what legal recourse was available. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he told others what I was up to.

But again, thanks for your insight. I have found it very interesting to learn about this aspect of the law.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141782#Comment_121141782

There are "entire contracts" whereby all the work would need to be complete before payment is due. But it does not appear you had that....... and you've also paid the man. Again, I am only a randomer on the internet speaking in general terms. Not giving any form of legal advice.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141724#Comment_121141724

What BS have I engaged in? What's his solicitor going to go after me for, are you suggesting defamation?

Just to clarify again. I've left him reviews based on his prices, and my genuinely held opinions of them, only.

I've also reported him to the CCPC. They asked me to follow up to their enforcement department with his text messages describing the other work he was going to do. Though they did caution they were unlikely to take action, as essentially he's too 'small-fry'.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141601#Comment_121141601

The sense of entitlement is astounding.

It certainly is.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141601#Comment_121141601

I haven’t mentioned take home pay. I guess your literacy is as good as your numeracy. Nor have I mentioned charging for his sandwiches.

It’s really simple. You said he charged 500 an hour. But the costs you gave and the time you gave don’t equate to 500. Im not saying his rate was good(or bad). I’m just pointing out the dishonesty.

Ultimately, you were charged the price you agreed. If the job took him 3 days would you be more content?

You claimed breach of contract, then you denied that claim. I don’t really care either way but if your gonna spin a story it’s usually best to keep it straight.

Calahonda52

78 posts later and still blah...

time to close thread and get down to the Fail to catch a quick hanging😀

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142126#Comment_121142126

What's the hourly figure you're putting on it so? All you've offered is this laughable 'sixteen billable hours' and that I should be paying hundreds an hour for collecting supplies, when in fact suppliers deliver within their charge.

As for accusing him of breach of contract, how can I be doing that? I'm here asking what constitutes a breach in circumstances like this!

But sure, resort to name calling if you have to.

It's amazing, and quite telling I guess, how sensitive people are on the idea that a business would be judged on the value for money it provides, instead of treating customers like a bunch of captive mugs.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142244#Comment_121142244

I don’t know enough about the scope to put numbers to it. I’m just pointing out the numbers you gave don’t add up.

Do you think you shouldn’t be payed for collect supplies and materials? No idea how you think 16 hours is ridiculous. One day x two people. Pretty straight forward.

As for accusing him of breach of contract, how can I be doing that?

How? By typing the letters and pressing “post comment”. You stated it…

But sure, resort to name calling if you have to

I haven’t called you any names. I’m pointing our poor behaviour, about strange to consider that name calling.

It's amazing, and quite telling I guess, how sensitive people are on the idea that a business would be judged on the value for money it provides, instead of treating customers like a bunch of captive mugs.

Just to be clear, who are you saying is the mug?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142435#Comment_121142435

Of course he should be paid for collecting supplies if it's necessary for the job, in this case it wasn't, as I've made clear.

What more 'scope' about the job do you need to know? He drove here in van, brought a hammer and some other hand tools and did the work for a few hours. Then he went off to another job.

I know he has all kind of business expenses, but none, when spread across all of his other customers, that would make a significant mark on his charge here.

If you want some more perspective on it, the basic site rate for this type of work is 20 per hour. And that's with a cert. His young assistant would be on laborer rates.

I know a business has to charge well above these employee rates, and is entitled to, but these prices are astronomical in comparison.

As I've acknowledged many, many, times now. I agreed to these fees and seem to have to legal basis to challenge. That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel duty bound, as a responsible citizen, to warn others.

I saw the effects of the last construction crash and I'm still seeing them now. This is just how things were the last time around.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142539#Comment_121142539

You're portraying yourself as somewhat of an expert in his business. So why would you have agreed to the original cost? Why would you have offered him more work (and money)? Why the need to consider (and I'm quotingbyour first post) "taking a for breach of contract/misrepresentation"?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142614#Comment_121142614

I didn't know very much about it all until I saw what was involved, and most importantly, I didn't know the volume of work involved.

I agreed in part on the belief that it involved a days work for two roofers.

I still thought it somewhat expensive at that, but was sold on the promise of the other job being done, which I was struggling to find somebody to undertake. That's why I considered the legal action.

My advice to anyone else would be to shop around, or consider delaying the work until the market settles if possible. If you are to shop around, be careful that there seems to be plenty others out there pricing this as being a more complex job than it is. Maybe try a carpenter looking for weekend work, or even a good handyman.

An earlier poster pointed out they had done an even more difficult job (opening a roof and fitting a new window) themselves. Replacing a window then is probably not something that requires a specialist roofing or window company.