Why references are so desired in Ireland?

jj_24

Hi there ! I am not irish and I have difficulty to understand the desire of talking to references that many companies and landlords have.

Could you explain me, why are they so important there? What exactly do they ask to the references?

Is it legal for a company say bad things about an employee?

Well, I really think that are easier options for everyone. If you want to know if a person has or not worked at some place, just ask a document or copy of the contract... And ask the previous company if the document is real.

I'm saying this, because imagine a startup where the turn over is high, just because young and qualified people like to change for new challenges. It is extremely hard to find a leader who is still in the same company after one or two years.

In this case, who would be the reference contact?

A new leader who doesn't know who I am or should I give my ex-boss personal phone number.... personal email?

Or should I give the number of the company?

Well, I really don't understand why people like so much references, call numbers, etc. And I think they may be very fragile and can be easily manipulated. Somebody can give a friend's number and ask them to pretend. Besides, biased and subjective opinions might appear very often.

What are your opinion about this?

Strumms

I’ve never been a manager, but if an applicant for a job gave me a CV and the reference was…

Mr Stephen Doyle, ABC Car Hire, Main St, Swords, Co Dublin… sdoyler@outlook.ie

it would be a major red flag. In fact I’d be calling the company landline , verifying or trying to verify the person is working there and insisting on speaking with them to confirm the reference…

Wouldn’t be entertaining having any discussion with people over their personal emails….

even a plumber with 5 employees has a website and company email these days.

A reference is desired as people lie.

NeutralHandle

You need to ask the person to provide a reference. Don't know if legal to give bad one but 99.9% of people would just decline to provide one instead of giving a bad one. The referee doesn't need to still work in the same company.

References are usually a box-checking exercise and in the scope of due diligence after a decision to offer a job is already made. It's best not to offer references up front because it might result in your referees being hassled and also might make you look bad to them if you do not get the job.

I've heard of people faking references and I've heard of people making fake reference checks to make sure good things are being said.

Hannibal_Smith

Moved to work and jobs which is probably a better fit for the thread. Local charter applies.

HS

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118588#Comment_121118588

I see. But in case my boss in not currently working in the company. What should I do? Give their personal number/email? And If I don't have it.

NeutralHandle

Look them up on linkedin

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118617#Comment_121118617

Do you know what is asked during a phone call between HR departments?

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118689#Comment_121118689

It's not a reference from your boss, it's a reference from the company. Somebody representing the company will give a reference.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118689#Comment_121118689

You have to ask a person to be your reference. A company HR rep will just give a standard "xxxxx worked here from x date to y date" reference.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118698#Comment_121118698

It could be either.

Especially in scenarios where a past company has closed down or a past manager has died.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121119206#Comment_121119206

Could be. But in my experience, which is considerable when it comes to selecting candidates, the vast majority of references don't entail closed companies or deceased referees. The manager can be the current one. Your performance, tenure, personality, etc can't only be known to one manager at one moment in time - if it were I'd be concerned that it's more a personal reference due to cronyism.

Exceptions, and 'could be', don't change the usual and basic function of a reference.

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121119308#Comment_121119308

Ok. So it is not an institutional reference that is being looked for. It is a personal reference, right?

People what to talk exactly with the manager that was my boss, right?

con747

I always wonder about these types of threads.

gameoverdude

Phone references are generally not the norm mostly against companies policies.

I'd be very hesitant to give one. Usual hr blah blah mail should suffice.

Strumms

If I’m turning up for an interview, as well as having a contact for my reference I’m having a copy of the reference in my possession.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058314055/why-references-are-so-desired-in-ireland

My observation would be that you don’t know much about the law…..

Employment and property rental bring with a lot of rights that make it were difficult to get shot of someone once they are in and it can often take some time beyond the legal periods allowed to discover this, hence employers and landlords try to take every step possible to avoid the undesirables.

Yes of course people can get around the background checks as you suggested, but once they do, they give the person depending on the reference the legal right to kick you out on your backside.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121120694#Comment_121120694

Are you serious? It is the exact opposite.

Jellybaby_1

I once worked as a secretary to a managing director of a large company. If he was checking up on a potential employee's references, he would just ask 'did X work for your company in the role of X, from X date to X date, and if so, if they applied to you now for a job, would you employ them, based on their work record?' Plenty of people lie on their applications and references have to be checked. Having heard young people talking about jobs recently it is seen as a normal thing to do. Why would an employer be happy to accept a reference without checking it.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121122575#Comment_121122575

This.

It is what real references are.

All HR will ever give is confirmation of service. The interesting part always has to come from a conversation, not a piece of paper. And competent hiring managers have ways if making sure they are talking with an actual manager not a friend faking it.

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121122767#Comment_121122767

Well, reading of the comments what I realize is:

There is no consensus on whether the reference should be institutional or personal. Some people above said that the institution is the one who should give references, others said that it is the person's manager who should speak.

Good. I understand the points raised and it seems to me that the institutional reference is the least biased and most realiable.

And I also think that asking for a reference while you are looking for a job can cause serious diplomatic discomfort.

Anyway, a trial period or starting with a temporary contract to see how the person works could be a legal alternative.

Either way, it's a cultural thing. It's how things have worked for a long time, and it's unlikely to change.

But, it is quite unpleasant to be in the hands of other people's subjectivity and biases.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123893#Comment_121123893

How is it a cultural thing? If you go to almost any country and look for a job you will need a reference from previous employers unless you just want them to take you're word for it that you are a great worker and they should just accept you're word for it. I wish that was how things worked because I would be the CEO of a multinational company in a couple of weeks earning a fortune.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123893#Comment_121123893

I don't know what countries you have worked in but it's very much the same everywhere.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123893#Comment_121123893

That trial period exists, it’s called probation, after which you either get on board or not, or sometimes probation is extended.

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123938#Comment_121123938

Well, there are many ways to understand more about the quality of a worker.

For example, which companies a person has previously worked? Were they well known? Are they recognized by the industry as a great competitor? Has the worker succeeded in the probation period on that company? Well, this person should be a good professional.

Also, the previous salary is a tip, if a person is a good professional or not. If you're really good at what you do, you tend to ask for more money and being paid at least on the average of your profession in your area.

At my country, all the work contracts are registered in a documents. So, you can show your new employer your previous records in an official state document,

jj_24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123974#Comment_121123974

Great! Probation is a excellent to see how a person works.

You're able to see, without asking anyone, if that person has the skills you're looking for.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124395#Comment_121124395

That's what references are for, to show the quality of a worker so I don't get your point? Also the reference states previous employment and the previous salary is no tip if you were employed for X amount but found to be not worth that amount and let go. I think most people get a contract here when employed so that is there to show future employers, maybe if you don't mind saying which country you are from it might help people understand why you think it is not.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121122767#Comment_121122767

Not this. Nothing on email thread about if hiring again or phone calls.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121124395#Comment_121124395

That information tells a prospective employer nothing but what's on a CV. It won't say if you were any good at the job, if you worked well with a team etc. Previous salary doesn't tell if you were worth it. All those record are is a list of employment with nothing about you as an employee.

Jellybaby_1

Perhaps it would be helpful if the OP could tell us if they are new to seeking work. Asking for a reference is normal. I don't understand their objection to it as the rest of society as I know it deals with it without any objections. If someone doesn't have a reference, or can't get one, then employers suspect they are hiding something. Can't be clearer than that really!