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So I am watching a program I recorded Monday on More4 called "The Falling Man"

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  • 09-09-2023 11:35am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭
    Ms


    So I am watching "The Falling Man" which I recorded on Monday on More4 but did not seem right to watch till now as it is September the 9th and almost 22 years since that terrible day.

    So I have a question for everyone in here. Which do you think done more damage to the American spirit?

    9/11,

    Trump

    Or the Januarary 6th riots?


    For me it was most definitely Trump and then the Jan 6th Riots then 9/11 but I do think as for effects on the rest of the World I think Trump was very bad mostly for America and not the rest of the World as it just got on without America for a while but 9/11 was very bad as it had massive effects across the markets and well I do not think the Jan 6th Riots had that much if an impact on the rest of the World but it was certainly a shock that Americans could turn on there own parliament like that and it certainly affected America big time.

    So what do you think?

    Post edited by AMKC on


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    While January 6th was incredibly bad, September 11th spawned multiple wars and the general war on terror. So it did definitely change what the US represents. January 6th incredibly bad but the extent of the damage still isn't really fully determined.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,794 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Since the question is about the American spirit, the answer is Trump and his legimisation of Nazism culminating in his planned coup which was attempted on the 6th January 2021 when he'd lost the 2020 election. He exposed and exploited a broken system of failed checks and balances and when he couldn't do it a second time, he attempted to discard it.

    Obviously, on a global scale, 9/11 and the Bush/Blair assaults on the middle east were worse but in terms of American culture, Trump.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭JeffreyEpspeen


    I mean the Clintons have been implicated in murders and Bill's rape claims are more substantiated than Trump's if you take emotion out of it. Hillary is a warmonger. Obama initiated the children in cages stuff. Obama ramped up the war crimes. Biden put an incredibly racist bill through in the 90s that flagrantly discriminated against blacks. Biden sniffs the hair of young children, to their visible discomfort. And don't get me started on Hunter Biden and the dirty tricks being pulled against Trump to prevent him from securing the republican nomination, all, you'll notice, conveniently timed to deflect from the Hunter news stories and other stuff that reflects poorly on Biden.

    I've never really understood the Trump hate from Irish people, as if it's of any importance to us. Again, take emotion out of it, by the only metrics that matter (economy etc) he was pretty good in his presidency. As you will notice, by the metrics that actually matter, the same things have nosedived since Biden was signed in.

    Yes Trump is an embarrassment with his behaviour but Biden and Hillary are/were just as bad in terms of optics while Obama is just a snake oil salesman who knew how to schmooze and play the game properly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    ooh the Clinton murder conspiracies, points for something other than 911 and UFOs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭JeffreyEpspeen


    Yeah, the official stories are much less preposterous. Lots of people commit suicide by shooting themselves in the back of the head twice (Vince Foster).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    The police, the pathologists and even Ken Starr ruled it a suicide..

    A 6'4 15 stone man shot himself in a public park (which btw the examination said he never moved from his original position) in broad daylight with his own gun after sending letters about his depressive state to friends in the days prior.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Hangdogroad


    9-11 was a bolt from the blue, you'd probably have to go back to the JFK assassination, or even further, to Pearl Harbour, for an event that rocked America to that extent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭Brid Hegarty


    I happened to see that documentary before. They first thought the falling man was a chef who worked in that restaurant, but then later realised it was more likely a sound engineer as he had something orange under his t-shirt which could also be seen in the photo of him falling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,534 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Not being smart but, honestly, does it matter if the poor person was a chef or a sound engineer?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭Brid Hegarty




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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,534 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I've seen it a couple of times. It's out over 15 years. What's your point?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    Plus ignoring the fact that Trump was found guilty of sexual assault in his civil case recently... Some posters really take leaps to defend that guy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,503 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    2977 people died on 9/11, yet we have the usual suspects here trying to argue that Trump is worse than the carnage that resulted in all those deaths.

    I know people are passionate about their beliefs but a bit of perspective and humanity wouldn't go amiss.

    The fact that the OP is even asking that question is bizarre to begin with, it's a complete apples and oranges situation, these things aren't comparable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Ye and how many people died in America from Covid because of Trumps inaction and denial of it? A lot more than died in 9/11 I can tell you.

    Trump should be in a dark cold prison cell somewhere for all the wrongs he has done not running for the presidency of America again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭j2




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,573 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I'm curious as to how or even why you separate Trump out as being apart from the January 6th riots? They are part and parcel of his baggage.

    In monetary terms, 9/11 is magnitudes more damaging to the US, both in the economic shock of the attack and the trillion dollars spent on the war on terror.

    The thing is, 9/11 galvanized Americans and they gathered around the flag.

    Whereas January 6th (and Trump) have only sown division and diminished US standing. January 6th cannot stand alone from Trump, it was the logical culmination of his election rhetoric.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I’d argue that they’re connected. While I’d say that 9/11 is what caused the most damage, I don’t think that Trump would have happened without 9/11.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,503 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    You could have posted in the Trump thread to have a go at Trump.

    9/11 is a separate issue altogether.

    What it appears you are doing here is finding a topic and crowbarring Trump into it just to highlight how much you dislike Trump.

    The documentary you mentioned focuses on the morality of the photographs taken of people falling to their deaths from the World Trade Center towers and how those photographs told a compelling and important story and at the same time were capturing people's last seconds of life and therefor extremely sensitive particularly to the families of the people in the photos.

    It's a good documentary that is heartbreaking and tells some very personal stories of those affected by it, but you saw it and your brain told you to open a thread about how much of an a**hole Donald Trump is. Bravo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I would say that September 11 led directly to Trump. The spin and lies that came out to justify the war were never challenged. No-one every faced any charges. The media that propagated them saw their ratings increase. They all learned that not only could they do those things and get away with them, but that they could benefit from them long term. And it led to longer term polarization.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,794 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Hundreds of thousands, certainly. It's so f*cked up but that's the US for you. A land where guns take priority over the lives of children.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,602 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    9/11 completely killed all the hope and optimism you saw in the US across the 90s in one morning and began the dark slide into what they have become today.

    What followed with Trump was bad but it's in no way comparable.

    In the future I can see Trump just being viewed as an awful president and a blip on the radar of US politics.

    9/11 will go down as one of the biggest events in US history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    You clearly didn't actually read my first post...



  • Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,794 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think it had to turn out like that though. 9/11 was exploited by the Republicans to engage in disastrous and needless foreign wars. The climate of hate and terror was one they fomented themselves.

    Trump, on the other hand, encourage Americans to outsource their thinking to him and disregard anything that conflicted with the MAGA narrative. This exacerbated polarisation in society, caused needless deaths during covid and culminated in his attempted coup in 2021.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,602 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Well, none of it had to turn out like any of it. The invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and everything that has subsequently happened in US politics - Trump included.

    I would love to see how an alternative reality would look if 9/11 had never happened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Me too but unless someone finds a way to go to alternate realities we never will know we can only imagine in our own minds and thoughts what it might have been like. One thing I do know do is that it cannot be as bad as it is now yes sure it coukd be worse but if 9/11 never happened I think Obama woukd have had an even better time as president and he woukd have made America even better and I also think Trump never woukd have became President maybe Hillary or someone else Obama sponsored would have instead. It certainly woukd have been a better route in most ways for America and the rest of the World. There would have been no ISIS and maybe who knows but maybe even no Covid19 as the World might have been in a better place with less wars and maybe Climate Change would not even be a thing as the World would be working together to prevent it from ever getting bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,244 ✭✭✭Brid Hegarty




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Ye maybe your right. It might not have been as bad do or maybe it would have been worse.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,534 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    There's no might about it. There's no connection.



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